5 ms·

>Centralized systems work like a web of tunnels - you can’t send “nowhere” or make a huge mistake You can totally make a 1 digit typo while making a bank trans

by rosndo 5y ago

>Centralized systems work like a web of tunnels - you can’t send “nowhere” or make a huge mistake You can totally make a 1 digit typo while making a bank transfer that results in all the money being lost. Perhaps you’ll recover it after years of litigation, but that’s really not guaranteed. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/dec/07/i-lost-my-193000-inheritance-with-one-wrong-digit-on-my-sort-code https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/dec/07/i-lost-my-1930... E: downvoted by upset bankers? :)

josephcsible 5y ago
But at least in that case, it's possible to get the money back. In this case, isn't the money absolutely, totally, 100% gone forever?
- rosndo 5y ago
  Sort of? You could appeal to the Ethereum developers, they could reasonably recover these funds without upsetting anyone too much by just refunding all WETH transactions sent to that contract. (This is the root of the spiritual disagreement between Ethereum and Ethereum Classic) Of course you’re more likely to succeed when it’s real money and the other party has to worry about getting sued. But even in the case of a bank transfer, the other party can abscond with your money and it’ll be extremely hard to recover since law enforcement probably won’t help you and (especially international) litigation costs can quickly render such an endeavor far too expensive.
tommek4077 5y ago
Americans do not understand money transfer, they are still using cheques and western union. To everyone: If you wrongly send money to a mistyped IBAN it is gone.
- alanfranz 5y ago
  > mistyped Very unlikely, the checksum would prevent that. And most banks (even though I’m unsure it is mandatory) will check the recipient, if totally mismatched a warning will be raised. But if you send money to the wrong iban+recipient, the money is gone.
  - distances 5y ago
    It is not gone. You may have to go through courts if the recipient does not return the money voluntarily though.
    - rosndo 5y ago
      You will not have any luck enforcing that court judgment if the recipient does not want to play ball. All they need to do is transfer the money to another country. It is very unlikely that law enforcement would help you in a situation like this, especially internationally.
- fxtentacle 5y ago
  But that's very unlikely because IBAN has a checksum precisely to prevent typos. Plus banks in Europe have a transfer reversal grave period so you just call them and they'll most likely be able to undo the transaction.
  - lozenge 5y ago
    I'm not sure about IBAN, but in the UK there are multiple layers that help you avoid sending to the wrong account. However, if you do ultimately send money into an actual incorrect person's account, the only thing the recipient's bank will do is to ask them to send it back. They will not give you contact details or anything else.
  - lioeters 5y ago
    TIL - more on IBAN checksum: > The IBAN check digit consists of two digits in positions 3 and 4 of the IBAN. It is calculated using the MOD97 algorithm and provides the primary integrity check for the IBAN standard. https://www.iban.com/iban-checker https://www.iban.com/iban-checker
- brazzy 5y ago
  To everyone: the above is wrong.
- mudita 5y ago
  I made a transfer with a mistyped IBAN once in the online interface of my German bank. The bank called me a day later and said that there’s something wrong with my IBAN, so I double-checked, realised my mistake and did the same transfer to the correct IBAN. I did not loose any money.
  - RaiausderDose 5y ago
    every online interface would check the IBAN checksum, this seems like a bad bank or a bad story aka lie.
- hestefisk 5y ago
  There’s SWIFT, and they have a reasonably good dispute mechanism, at least for cross border payments.
- 7steps2much 5y ago
  > To everyone: If you wrongly send money to a mistyped IBAN it is gone. You clearly have no idea how an IBAN works. It has a checksum exactly to avoid mistyping. And even if you send the money to an valid, but wrong, IBAN then one of two things happens: * The account doesn't exist -> transaction bounces * The account does exist -> ask for money back, worst case go to court to recover it But the money is not gone. There are no black holes just swallowing everything up.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
dividuum 5y ago
Bad example. IBAN (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Num... ) for example has a two digit checksum that prevents this and similar simple typos.
- microtonal 5y ago
  Besides the checksum, in some countries (e.g. in many banks in The Netherlands), the given name is also checked against the name associated with the target account [1]. [1] https://www.betaalvereniging.nl/betaalproducten-en-diensten/iban/iban-naam-check/ https://www.betaalvereniging.nl/betaalproducten-en-diensten/...
- rosndo 5y ago
  How is it a bad example? Not everyone uses IBANs. And besides, big banks still have to deal with checksum-passing iban typos on a daily basis. IBANs only have two check digits.
  - user-the-name 5y ago
    > And besides, big banks still have to deal with checksum-passing iban typos on a daily basis. That's the thing - they can deal with it. There are fallbacks. In crypto, your money is just instantly destroyed.
    - rosndo 5y ago
      You’re mistaken, they usually can’t deal with it. They’ll ask the other bank if they’d like to return the money, and that bank will maybe ask the recipient if they’d like to return the money. The recipient doesn’t want to return the money? You’re SOL. You can go to court, but they can trivially evade civil action by transferring the money overseas.
      - user-the-name 5y ago
        Those are all things you can try, though. In crypto, again, the money just instantly disappears.
HL33tibCe7 5y ago
If you read the followup, that man ended up getting his money back. Additionally, it would be astronomically unlikely to make a mistake like that nowadays because confirmation of payee is used so widely (banks check that the name of your recipient matches the intended name before completing a transaction). [0] https://www.psr.org.uk/publications/consultations/cp19-4-confirmation-of-payee-response-to-the-first-consultation-and-draft-specific-direction-for-further-consultation/ https://www.psr.org.uk/publications/consultations/cp19-4-con...
- posterboy 5y ago
  But this costs us much much more than 500k in sum
jmull 5y ago
This is a really good case against crypto. In the crypto case of this thread, the OP made a mistake and there's no process to fix it. 100K's lost. There's no avenue for recovery. In the banking case of your link, the man made a mistake and was able to correct it, despite the bank working against him. 100K's lost and recovered. In the case of the bank, it sure wasn't perfect and definitely should be better. But ultimately, the bank not only paid to recover the money, but the banking system (according to the article) is at least promising a fix for the underlying issue that a simple mistake in writing digits can lead to missending funds. Also: crypto is touts its trustless nature as a positive. But note that trust is the lever Mr. Teich used to get Barclays to pay the cost of recovering the funds. Barclays only paid after their reputation was threatened, and of course, trust is based on reputation.
CRConrad 5y ago
> You can totally make a 1 digit typo while making a bank transfer that results in all the money being lost. Difference being that it isn't "lost" -- not in the sense of vanished from the face of the Earth, gone, ceased to exist. It's only lost to the sender, but it still exists; someone still has it. Sure, the wrong person or entity, but still: It's not gone from existence. Only CryptoCrap does that.

by rosndo 5y ago

josephcsible 5y ago

But at least in that case, it's possible to get the money back. In this case, isn't the money absolutely, totally, 100% gone forever?

rosndo 5y ago
Sort of? You could appeal to the Ethereum developers, they could reasonably recover these funds without upsetting anyone too much by just refunding all WETH transactions sent to that contract. (This is the root of the spiritual disagreement between Ethereum and Ethereum Classic) Of course you’re more likely to succeed when it’s real money and the other party has to worry about getting sued. But even in the case of a bank transfer, the other party can abscond with your money and it’ll be extremely hard to recover since law enforcement probably won’t help you and (especially international) litigation costs can quickly render such an endeavor far too expensive.

tommek4077 5y ago

Americans do not understand money transfer, they are still using cheques and western union. To everyone: If you wrongly send money to a mistyped IBAN it is gone.

alanfranz 5y ago
> mistyped Very unlikely, the checksum would prevent that. And most banks (even though I’m unsure it is mandatory) will check the recipient, if totally mismatched a warning will be raised. But if you send money to the wrong iban+recipient, the money is gone.
- distances 5y ago
  It is not gone. You may have to go through courts if the recipient does not return the money voluntarily though.
  - rosndo 5y ago
    You will not have any luck enforcing that court judgment if the recipient does not want to play ball. All they need to do is transfer the money to another country. It is very unlikely that law enforcement would help you in a situation like this, especially internationally.
fxtentacle 5y ago
But that's very unlikely because IBAN has a checksum precisely to prevent typos. Plus banks in Europe have a transfer reversal grave period so you just call them and they'll most likely be able to undo the transaction.
- lozenge 5y ago
  I'm not sure about IBAN, but in the UK there are multiple layers that help you avoid sending to the wrong account. However, if you do ultimately send money into an actual incorrect person's account, the only thing the recipient's bank will do is to ask them to send it back. They will not give you contact details or anything else.
- lioeters 5y ago
  TIL - more on IBAN checksum: > The IBAN check digit consists of two digits in positions 3 and 4 of the IBAN. It is calculated using the MOD97 algorithm and provides the primary integrity check for the IBAN standard. https://www.iban.com/iban-checker https://www.iban.com/iban-checker
brazzy 5y ago
To everyone: the above is wrong.
mudita 5y ago
I made a transfer with a mistyped IBAN once in the online interface of my German bank. The bank called me a day later and said that there’s something wrong with my IBAN, so I double-checked, realised my mistake and did the same transfer to the correct IBAN. I did not loose any money.
- RaiausderDose 5y ago
  every online interface would check the IBAN checksum, this seems like a bad bank or a bad story aka lie.
hestefisk 5y ago
There’s SWIFT, and they have a reasonably good dispute mechanism, at least for cross border payments.
7steps2much 5y ago
> To everyone: If you wrongly send money to a mistyped IBAN it is gone. You clearly have no idea how an IBAN works. It has a checksum exactly to avoid mistyping. And even if you send the money to an valid, but wrong, IBAN then one of two things happens: * The account doesn't exist -> transaction bounces * The account does exist -> ask for money back, worst case go to court to recover it But the money is not gone. There are no black holes just swallowing everything up.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

dividuum 5y ago

Bad example. IBAN (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Num... ) for example has a two digit checksum that prevents this and similar simple typos.

microtonal 5y ago
Besides the checksum, in some countries (e.g. in many banks in The Netherlands), the given name is also checked against the name associated with the target account [1]. [1] https://www.betaalvereniging.nl/betaalproducten-en-diensten/iban/iban-naam-check/ https://www.betaalvereniging.nl/betaalproducten-en-diensten/...
rosndo 5y ago
How is it a bad example? Not everyone uses IBANs. And besides, big banks still have to deal with checksum-passing iban typos on a daily basis. IBANs only have two check digits.
- user-the-name 5y ago
  > And besides, big banks still have to deal with checksum-passing iban typos on a daily basis. That's the thing - they can deal with it. There are fallbacks. In crypto, your money is just instantly destroyed.
  - rosndo 5y ago
    You’re mistaken, they usually can’t deal with it. They’ll ask the other bank if they’d like to return the money, and that bank will maybe ask the recipient if they’d like to return the money. The recipient doesn’t want to return the money? You’re SOL. You can go to court, but they can trivially evade civil action by transferring the money overseas.
    - user-the-name 5y ago
      Those are all things you can try, though. In crypto, again, the money just instantly disappears.

HL33tibCe7 5y ago

If you read the followup, that man ended up getting his money back. Additionally, it would be astronomically unlikely to make a mistake like that nowadays because confirmation of payee is used so widely (banks check that the name of your recipient matches the intended name before completing a transaction). [0] https://www.psr.org.uk/publications/consultations/cp19-4-confirmation-of-payee-response-to-the-first-consultation-and-draft-specific-direction-for-further-consultation/ https://www.psr.org.uk/publications/consultations/cp19-4-con...

posterboy 5y ago
But this costs us much much more than 500k in sum

jmull 5y ago

This is a really good case against crypto. In the crypto case of this thread, the OP made a mistake and there's no process to fix it. 100K's lost. There's no avenue for recovery. In the banking case of your link, the man made a mistake and was able to correct it, despite the bank working against him. 100K's lost and recovered. In the case of the bank, it sure wasn't perfect and definitely should be better. But ultimately, the bank not only paid to recover the money, but the banking system (according to the article) is at least promising a fix for the underlying issue that a simple mistake in writing digits can lead to missending funds. Also: crypto is touts its trustless nature as a positive. But note that trust is the lever Mr. Teich used to get Barclays to pay the cost of recovering the funds. Barclays only paid after their reputation was threatened, and of course, trust is based on reputation.

CRConrad 5y ago

> You can totally make a 1 digit typo while making a bank transfer that results in all the money being lost. Difference being that it isn't "lost" -- not in the sense of vanished from the face of the Earth, gone, ceased to exist. It's only lost to the sender, but it still exists; someone still has it. Sure, the wrong person or entity, but still: It's not gone from existence. Only CryptoCrap does that.