4 ms·

This truly is terrible advice. The worst thing that could happen would be your life gets wrapped into a religious community. This is why people of seeming aver

This truly is terrible advice. The worst thing that could happen would be your life gets wrapped into a religious community. This is why people of seeming average intelligence stay in churches. Everyone is pretending to believe the nonsense because if anyone admits (often even just to themselves) just how stupid it is, poof goes their friends, community, perhaps even their marriage. > I’m not even spiritual and I avoid a lot of the overly churchy parts. Literally EVERY SINGLE PERSON in a church says this. I knew of a literal cult, whose leaders ended up in jail, and THEY said this. Everyone says this because what's written in these books is indefensibly stupid that it's embarrassing.

gafferongames 5y ago
I'm an atheist or at best agnostic, but I've met and known many highly intelligent people who are also religious. It's not mutually exclusive.
- throw__away7391 5y ago
  So we have an idea that is false. Demonstrably false we can agree. Also, anecdotes aside for a moment overwhelmingly higher religious beliefs correlate with lower intelligence. So, back to the anecdote, why in the case of someone being intelligent by your judgement would they believe this story, with ample evidence easily accessible to refute it? - They've never considered it critically--ok that's possible - They've considered it critically and decided it's true--I'd argue they either haven't or they're not - They have developed a cognitive disconnect to protect themselves from loss of community, connection to their family, or fear of death I am nearly certain that the last item accounts for the great majority, which is why this is such a dangerous suggestion. There is a real risk of losing your agency as an individual for of the rest of your life. I have seen this happen to many many people. I have seen many many people (literally 100s) who joined a church around when they were in their 30s just drawn in by the "community" only to become deeply disillusioned now in their 60 and 70 and feel that they had lost or wasted their youth and full of regrets. These institutions have spent thousands of years refining techniques for manipulating people, and their preferred primary prey is children and 30-somethings who feel "lost" exactly as the OP describes. They literally produce videos and training materials stating such.
  - khamba 5y ago
    Thank you for posting this. I was reconsidering writing a response to that, but you phrased it very well. An excellent eye opening article I have read about this: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/N2pENnTPB75sfc9kb/outside-the-laboratory https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/N2pENnTPB75sfc9kb/outside-th... which discusses scientists believing in religion. The arguments also apply to any rational person who forms beliefs based on evidence which I would say is a necessary property to be intelligent. Hence it irks me when someone says "intelligent people believe in god too"
  - anon_d 5y ago
    There are tons of things like this outside of religion. Almost every coherent group of people believes in some sort of nonsense for political reasons, and as a form of identity signaling. - Many people in this community believe that a female soul can be mis-allocated to a male body, for example. - Many people in this community believe that Trump was involved in a conspiracy with Putin to take over the USA. - Many people in this community believe that democracy is a form of government that gives the population more power than other forms of government. All of these beliefs are rather silly, but are accepted as dogma and critique is unwelcome. ---- I do agree, however, that the Christian church is predatory. It is matriarchal and is basically a system of domestication. However, the fact that they employ dogma is not the problem, all groups employ dogma.
    - hotpotamus 5y ago
      Seems like this is political flamebait, but I don't think I've ever seen the first point phrased in such a way that it refers to a soul. This makes me wonder, what part of that do you believe is nonsense? The existence of the soul?
      - anon_d 5y ago
        I have no interest in arguing against any of these points here. All I am claiming is that they are a form of dogma. These beliefs look very silly to everyone outside of this culture. They seem silly to everyone. To every other culture in the world, and to every culture of the past. And yet, critiquing them within this culture is dangerous.
- fouc 5y ago
  The real litmus test for high intelligence is if they were not anti-vaxxers and actively sought vaccinations.
  - shakkhar 5y ago
    Honest question - was this sarcasm?
    - fouc 5y ago
      It's not sarcastic at all but I suppose it's sort of tongue-in-cheek? Antivaxxers are probably not highly intelligent.. But they will think they are because of Dunning-Kruger effect.
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > Antivaxxers are probably not highly intelligent.. But they will think they are because of Dunning-Kruger effect. DK is basically “people of all ability levels tend to see themselves slightly closer to the 70th percentile than they are”, not “people at the bottom see themselves at the top”.
- dennis_jeeves 5y ago
conductr 5y ago
Wow, ok. So it's meant as an idea which in today's world is often unconventional yet used to be very normal not very long ago. Whether we/you like it or not, organizing around faith is quite foundational to humans in general. Obviously the OP and any reader needs to evaluate their personal situation and appetite for this and also evaluate any church they attend. Not all churches are cults. Most modern churches with younger crowds have steered away from preachy aspects and see themselves as building a faith based community. Being good citizens in a community that loosely believe in the same thing. That's why nondenominational christian churches are increasingly popular. The concerns you raised are true of traditional and culty type churches, certain denominations, etc that make waves and I think you're projecting the headlines/horror stories you've heard onto religion as a whole while ignoring Millions of people have healthy relationships with their church so this blanket statement of terrible advice is just ignorant. FWIW, I consider myself agnostic and can filter away BS that isn't aligned with my personal take or just avoid the stuff that I have no interest in (eg. bible school). It's very much like politics. I don't have to believe what you believe we can coexist and maybe we have some minor overlap that we can connect on.

gafferongames 5y ago

I'm an atheist or at best agnostic, but I've met and known many highly intelligent people who are also religious. It's not mutually exclusive.

throw__away7391 5y ago
So we have an idea that is false. Demonstrably false we can agree. Also, anecdotes aside for a moment overwhelmingly higher religious beliefs correlate with lower intelligence. So, back to the anecdote, why in the case of someone being intelligent by your judgement would they believe this story, with ample evidence easily accessible to refute it? - They've never considered it critically--ok that's possible - They've considered it critically and decided it's true--I'd argue they either haven't or they're not - They have developed a cognitive disconnect to protect themselves from loss of community, connection to their family, or fear of death I am nearly certain that the last item accounts for the great majority, which is why this is such a dangerous suggestion. There is a real risk of losing your agency as an individual for of the rest of your life. I have seen this happen to many many people. I have seen many many people (literally 100s) who joined a church around when they were in their 30s just drawn in by the "community" only to become deeply disillusioned now in their 60 and 70 and feel that they had lost or wasted their youth and full of regrets. These institutions have spent thousands of years refining techniques for manipulating people, and their preferred primary prey is children and 30-somethings who feel "lost" exactly as the OP describes. They literally produce videos and training materials stating such.
- khamba 5y ago
  Thank you for posting this. I was reconsidering writing a response to that, but you phrased it very well. An excellent eye opening article I have read about this: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/N2pENnTPB75sfc9kb/outside-the-laboratory https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/N2pENnTPB75sfc9kb/outside-th... which discusses scientists believing in religion. The arguments also apply to any rational person who forms beliefs based on evidence which I would say is a necessary property to be intelligent. Hence it irks me when someone says "intelligent people believe in god too"
- anon_d 5y ago
  There are tons of things like this outside of religion. Almost every coherent group of people believes in some sort of nonsense for political reasons, and as a form of identity signaling. - Many people in this community believe that a female soul can be mis-allocated to a male body, for example. - Many people in this community believe that Trump was involved in a conspiracy with Putin to take over the USA. - Many people in this community believe that democracy is a form of government that gives the population more power than other forms of government. All of these beliefs are rather silly, but are accepted as dogma and critique is unwelcome. ---- I do agree, however, that the Christian church is predatory. It is matriarchal and is basically a system of domestication. However, the fact that they employ dogma is not the problem, all groups employ dogma.
  - hotpotamus 5y ago
    Seems like this is political flamebait, but I don't think I've ever seen the first point phrased in such a way that it refers to a soul. This makes me wonder, what part of that do you believe is nonsense? The existence of the soul?
    - anon_d 5y ago
      I have no interest in arguing against any of these points here. All I am claiming is that they are a form of dogma. These beliefs look very silly to everyone outside of this culture. They seem silly to everyone. To every other culture in the world, and to every culture of the past. And yet, critiquing them within this culture is dangerous.
fouc 5y ago
The real litmus test for high intelligence is if they were not anti-vaxxers and actively sought vaccinations.
- shakkhar 5y ago
  Honest question - was this sarcasm?
  - fouc 5y ago
    It's not sarcastic at all but I suppose it's sort of tongue-in-cheek? Antivaxxers are probably not highly intelligent.. But they will think they are because of Dunning-Kruger effect.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > Antivaxxers are probably not highly intelligent.. But they will think they are because of Dunning-Kruger effect. DK is basically “people of all ability levels tend to see themselves slightly closer to the 70th percentile than they are”, not “people at the bottom see themselves at the top”.
dennis_jeeves 5y ago

conductr 5y ago

Wow, ok. So it's meant as an idea which in today's world is often unconventional yet used to be very normal not very long ago. Whether we/you like it or not, organizing around faith is quite foundational to humans in general. Obviously the OP and any reader needs to evaluate their personal situation and appetite for this and also evaluate any church they attend. Not all churches are cults. Most modern churches with younger crowds have steered away from preachy aspects and see themselves as building a faith based community. Being good citizens in a community that loosely believe in the same thing. That's why nondenominational christian churches are increasingly popular. The concerns you raised are true of traditional and culty type churches, certain denominations, etc that make waves and I think you're projecting the headlines/horror stories you've heard onto religion as a whole while ignoring Millions of people have healthy relationships with their church so this blanket statement of terrible advice is just ignorant. FWIW, I consider myself agnostic and can filter away BS that isn't aligned with my personal take or just avoid the stuff that I have no interest in (eg. bible school). It's very much like politics. I don't have to believe what you believe we can coexist and maybe we have some minor overlap that we can connect on.