9 ms·

The Great Lie - Lorem Ipsum

83 points by Jgrubb 15y ago

bdfh42 15y ago
First law of web site development: The client's copy never arrives by the agreed deadline. Second Law: After the copy deadline, the client says they are a bit busy so could you just put something suitable in.
- Jem 15y ago
  Upvoted for truth. In 5 years of professional web development I don't think I've ever had a client meet a copy deadline.
- davedx 15y ago
  Third Law: After putting the copy in, the client changes their mind and sends you a Word doc without using outline mode so you can't see the changes and have to copy everything back into the site again from the start.
  - waitwhat 15y ago
    Saves as .txt and a text diff utility can be a real life-saver. It's not perfect, but with a reasonably-skilled user it should be a lot faster than redoing everything from scratch.
    - eftpotrm 15y ago
      Actually, CSDiff allows you to diff Word documents (at least old versions, I've not yet tried it with .docx files) and it outputs a new one formatted set up with Track Changes on and highlighting the edits. Very useful.
  - aspir 15y ago
    That still sounds like a contract issue. It should be included in your contract that if the client does something like that, then they should pay extra. If that still doesn't alleviate the frustration, you aren't aren't charging them enough.
- netcan 15y ago
  When it does arrive, instead of a headline + 100 words for the little box, it's a 5 page essay.
  - Jgrubb 15y ago
    Or vice versa. I should've just dropped the first sentence of Lorem in for most of these pages.
- dspillett 15y ago
  Or you (directly or via the agreed project plan) tell them it could take seven days to sort everything after the copy is delivered. They deliver the copy very late (and not in the agreed format) and get upperty when they find not absolutely everything has been done by 0900 the next day. Because you should have been organised and ready to deal with the content as soon as it arrived...
- aspir 15y ago
  My caveat to the second law: copy rates are 2x that of design. Now our team is more than happy to write for you. Add that as a rider in the contract, and your problems will begin to disappear.
wccrawford 15y ago
Seems to me that you get paid either way. It's the client that loses if they don't provide the content they promised.
- frankPants 15y ago
  That's great, now you've got another crap looking website to add to your portfolio. Eventually you'll stop being paid. Just because the client's paying doesn't mean they've got a clue. It's our job to steer them towards great software, not take their money and produce mediocrity.
  - Jgrubb 15y ago
    Actually with the exception of the copy, which may or may not get straightened out, it's a pretty decent little WP design. And like I said, I used the opportunity (which was basically a favor for a buddy) to take Compass for a spin, to fine tune my own little Sass library that I've been working on, and to get to know and work with a new designer. Building a cathedral was never the idea. My main client is the one I'm obsessively steering toward great software.
- pseudonimble 15y ago
  Your past work is the only tangible evidence of your current ability. A good design with bad copy looks like a template, which may be OK if you design templates, but if you design websites, copy is extremely important.
- raganwald 15y ago
  Every day you wake up in the morning, work, and then you put your head on your pillow at night. You never get that day back, it’s gone forever and your life is one day shorter. You’ve either done good work or bad during that day. How many days of bad work can you tolerate before you decide to make a change in your life? I think at some level people either decide that they don’t care about their work or they care enough that bad work is painful. It’s not for me to tell you or anybody else which way to go with this, but for me, bad work is painful and it’s up to me to work things out with clients such that I do good work and they are happy with the results.
flixic 15y ago
I never start designing website before I get final version of all copy. That's the rule. No placeholders. No quick drafts either. Web is all about type and words, I do pay a lot of attention how I present them, and I need to know what they are to do my job well.
- Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
  I completely see the logic of what you're saying - how can you be expected to present words when you don't know what the words are - but does this hard line work in practice? Do you demand every bit of copy or just the key bits? For instance if you were doing a travel site with 100 hotels would you want every hotel or just two or three as a template?
  - flixic 15y ago
    In the example you have given, yes, 2-3 examples would suffice. However, I usually design websites with carefully crafted text and design (that is, with a lot of content that won't change much and won't come from CMS), so in most cases, I ask for all copy.
Jgrubb 15y ago
In fairness, I've actually had a good time on this little project. It's just a Wordpress site with 2 different templates, so it's not exactly complicated or high pressure, and I used it as an introduction to Compass (on which I'm still undecided). I think I intended this post as a note to future clients on small projects, especially when they bring forth rather ambitious sitemaps and insist on drop-down menus (at the last minute (which are currently only serving to draw attention to pages "under construction")). Thanks for reading.
nhangen 15y ago
"The Great Lie" is a bit over the top, no? This isn't a problem with Lorem Ipsum, but with planning and copywriting. You can't blame LI for the fact that the copy sucks.
- Jgrubb 15y ago
  In the context of Lorem Ipsum versus the revelations of the Pentagon Papers, maybe a little over the top, sure. I think my main point was that it now occurs to me how flawed it is for an entire team to work on/refine/agree upon the design of a website and a key piece of company branding without putting apparently any thought up front into that most key piece of the website - the copy. So yes, I agree with you on all points.
jasonkester 15y ago
On a side note, what's the story with all these sites using blurry fonts lately? This article is completely illegible in the latest build of Chrome on Windows XP. I see this on maybe 5% of the submissions here these days. Normally, it's a sans-serif font that's the culprit, and this is my first serif-blurry sighting. Here's the font-face: garamond-premier-pro-1,garamond-premier-pro-2,serif; I've got photoshop installed, so chances are I actually have one of those local. But Chrome can't render it, so if you use it on your website it will look bad for everybody except you. Now, since I'm in developer tools, I can change that to garamond,garamond-premier-pro-1,garamond-premier-pro-2,serif; ... and it will render in a readable form. So the question, I guess, is why would you specify a non-standard font without testing to ensure that it falls back to something that's at least readable for everybody else? Especially if you're a screen designer by trade, writing articles to show off your knowledge of screen design issues.
- Jgrubb 15y ago
  It's a [TypeKit](http://typekit.com/ http://typekit.com/) font. Looks great on everything on a Mac, but thanks for the heads up. edit: and I'm definitely not a screen designer, nor am I intending showing off knowledge of any sort of expertise. This was more of a "note to self". Cheers.
  - AgentConundrum 15y ago
    Just a heads up: HN doesn't use Markdown, so you can't link URLs like that. You can just type a URL and it'll become a link (shown truncated if its too long). Another popular convention is to use brackets as footnotes[1] and put the URL at the bottom of the comment. [1] Like this.
    - Jgrubb 15y ago
      I've seen the footnote thing plenty. I guess I thought they were auto-generated or something?? Leaving the error for all the world to see. Anyway, thanks...
  - mistermustard 15y ago
oliciv 15y ago
We've tried sending design mockups to clients with the copy already inserted instead of Lorem Ipsum for this exact reason. It usually tends to lead to disappointment when the browser renders their copy slightly differently to Photoshop
sambeau 15y ago
This is another example of design being how something works not how something looks. A website's copy is its function.
- saraid216 15y ago
  This can't be stressed enough. Lorem Ipsum is great for sites where the copy is not the function. Say a message board. Its purpose is to provide unpredictable quantities of text. Using it for definite amounts, like marketing copy, is damn close to a misuse of the tool.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

83 points by Jgrubb 15y ago

First law of web site development: The client's copy never arrives by the agreed deadline. Second Law: After the copy deadline, the client says they are a bit busy so could you just put something suitable in.

Jem 15y ago
Upvoted for truth. In 5 years of professional web development I don't think I've ever had a client meet a copy deadline.
davedx 15y ago
Third Law: After putting the copy in, the client changes their mind and sends you a Word doc without using outline mode so you can't see the changes and have to copy everything back into the site again from the start.
- waitwhat 15y ago
  Saves as .txt and a text diff utility can be a real life-saver. It's not perfect, but with a reasonably-skilled user it should be a lot faster than redoing everything from scratch.
  - eftpotrm 15y ago
    Actually, CSDiff allows you to diff Word documents (at least old versions, I've not yet tried it with .docx files) and it outputs a new one formatted set up with Track Changes on and highlighting the edits. Very useful.
- aspir 15y ago
  That still sounds like a contract issue. It should be included in your contract that if the client does something like that, then they should pay extra. If that still doesn't alleviate the frustration, you aren't aren't charging them enough.
netcan 15y ago
When it does arrive, instead of a headline + 100 words for the little box, it's a 5 page essay.
- Jgrubb 15y ago
  Or vice versa. I should've just dropped the first sentence of Lorem in for most of these pages.
dspillett 15y ago
Or you (directly or via the agreed project plan) tell them it could take seven days to sort everything after the copy is delivered. They deliver the copy very late (and not in the agreed format) and get upperty when they find not absolutely everything has been done by 0900 the next day. Because you should have been organised and ready to deal with the content as soon as it arrived...
aspir 15y ago
My caveat to the second law: copy rates are 2x that of design. Now our team is more than happy to write for you. Add that as a rider in the contract, and your problems will begin to disappear.

wccrawford 15y ago

Seems to me that you get paid either way. It's the client that loses if they don't provide the content they promised.

frankPants 15y ago
That's great, now you've got another crap looking website to add to your portfolio. Eventually you'll stop being paid. Just because the client's paying doesn't mean they've got a clue. It's our job to steer them towards great software, not take their money and produce mediocrity.
- Jgrubb 15y ago
  Actually with the exception of the copy, which may or may not get straightened out, it's a pretty decent little WP design. And like I said, I used the opportunity (which was basically a favor for a buddy) to take Compass for a spin, to fine tune my own little Sass library that I've been working on, and to get to know and work with a new designer. Building a cathedral was never the idea. My main client is the one I'm obsessively steering toward great software.
pseudonimble 15y ago
Your past work is the only tangible evidence of your current ability. A good design with bad copy looks like a template, which may be OK if you design templates, but if you design websites, copy is extremely important.
raganwald 15y ago
Every day you wake up in the morning, work, and then you put your head on your pillow at night. You never get that day back, it’s gone forever and your life is one day shorter. You’ve either done good work or bad during that day. How many days of bad work can you tolerate before you decide to make a change in your life? I think at some level people either decide that they don’t care about their work or they care enough that bad work is painful. It’s not for me to tell you or anybody else which way to go with this, but for me, bad work is painful and it’s up to me to work things out with clients such that I do good work and they are happy with the results.

flixic 15y ago

I never start designing website before I get final version of all copy. That's the rule. No placeholders. No quick drafts either. Web is all about type and words, I do pay a lot of attention how I present them, and I need to know what they are to do my job well.

Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
I completely see the logic of what you're saying - how can you be expected to present words when you don't know what the words are - but does this hard line work in practice? Do you demand every bit of copy or just the key bits? For instance if you were doing a travel site with 100 hotels would you want every hotel or just two or three as a template?
- flixic 15y ago
  In the example you have given, yes, 2-3 examples would suffice. However, I usually design websites with carefully crafted text and design (that is, with a lot of content that won't change much and won't come from CMS), so in most cases, I ask for all copy.

Jgrubb 15y ago

In fairness, I've actually had a good time on this little project. It's just a Wordpress site with 2 different templates, so it's not exactly complicated or high pressure, and I used it as an introduction to Compass (on which I'm still undecided). I think I intended this post as a note to future clients on small projects, especially when they bring forth rather ambitious sitemaps and insist on drop-down menus (at the last minute (which are currently only serving to draw attention to pages "under construction")). Thanks for reading.

nhangen 15y ago

"The Great Lie" is a bit over the top, no? This isn't a problem with Lorem Ipsum, but with planning and copywriting. You can't blame LI for the fact that the copy sucks.

Jgrubb 15y ago
In the context of Lorem Ipsum versus the revelations of the Pentagon Papers, maybe a little over the top, sure. I think my main point was that it now occurs to me how flawed it is for an entire team to work on/refine/agree upon the design of a website and a key piece of company branding without putting apparently any thought up front into that most key piece of the website - the copy. So yes, I agree with you on all points.

jasonkester 15y ago

On a side note, what's the story with all these sites using blurry fonts lately? This article is completely illegible in the latest build of Chrome on Windows XP. I see this on maybe 5% of the submissions here these days. Normally, it's a sans-serif font that's the culprit, and this is my first serif-blurry sighting. Here's the font-face: garamond-premier-pro-1,garamond-premier-pro-2,serif; I've got photoshop installed, so chances are I actually have one of those local. But Chrome can't render it, so if you use it on your website it will look bad for everybody except you. Now, since I'm in developer tools, I can change that to garamond,garamond-premier-pro-1,garamond-premier-pro-2,serif; ... and it will render in a readable form. So the question, I guess, is why would you specify a non-standard font without testing to ensure that it falls back to something that's at least readable for everybody else? Especially if you're a screen designer by trade, writing articles to show off your knowledge of screen design issues.

Jgrubb 15y ago
It's a [TypeKit](http://typekit.com/ http://typekit.com/) font. Looks great on everything on a Mac, but thanks for the heads up. edit: and I'm definitely not a screen designer, nor am I intending showing off knowledge of any sort of expertise. This was more of a "note to self". Cheers.
- AgentConundrum 15y ago
  Just a heads up: HN doesn't use Markdown, so you can't link URLs like that. You can just type a URL and it'll become a link (shown truncated if its too long). Another popular convention is to use brackets as footnotes[1] and put the URL at the bottom of the comment. [1] Like this.
  - Jgrubb 15y ago
    I've seen the footnote thing plenty. I guess I thought they were auto-generated or something?? Leaving the error for all the world to see. Anyway, thanks...
- mistermustard 15y ago

oliciv 15y ago

We've tried sending design mockups to clients with the copy already inserted instead of Lorem Ipsum for this exact reason. It usually tends to lead to disappointment when the browser renders their copy slightly differently to Photoshop

sambeau 15y ago

This is another example of design being how something works not how something looks. A website's copy is its function.

saraid216 15y ago
This can't be stressed enough. Lorem Ipsum is great for sites where the copy is not the function. Say a message board. Its purpose is to provide unpredictable quantities of text. Using it for definite amounts, like marketing copy, is damn close to a misuse of the tool.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]