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This line of thinking requires us to pretend there is no connection between sex and gender. But that raises bigger issues. For one, if gender has no relation t

• dragonwriter 5y ago
  > This line of thinking requires us to pretend there is no connection between sex and gender. No, it doesn't. In fact, the view of gender identity as innate is perfectly consistent with viewing it as one of many sex traits (whose distribution with regard to other sex traits is itself consistent with the bimodal-but-not-binary distribution of other sex traits.) > why are the acronyms FtM and MtF used in the trans community? mostly, AFAICT, they aren't; it's been years since I've seen them used except by people outside of the community and/or in marketing to the trans fetishist audience. I don't see trans people describing themselves as MtF, I see those who that label used by others would apply to describing themselves as “woman”, “trans woman”, or “(trans) woman who is AMAB (assigned male at birth)”. > Male & female are biological sexes, not genders. No, they are the names of both biological sexes [0] and the genders stereotypically ascribed based on sex traits. It is inconvenient that the names are identical, but they serve as both, because of historical sex essentialism in assignment of ascribed social roles. MtF and FtM refer to (imposed ascribed gender) to (gender identity and aspirational ascribed gender). [0] arguably, though arguably the mapping of multidimensional sex traits to binary “sexes” is itself really just another system of ascribed gender.
  • yucky 5y ago
    >It is in inconvenient that the names are identical I always assumed that was intentional. Also, are you sure male/female can be genders? If so, how is science supposed to refer to biological sex? You don't see this issue in animal classifications so I'm stumped. I'm still not sure what gender actually is then. What makes something a gender? Is there a reason geek, or goth or whatever can't be a gender?
    • dragonwriter 5y ago
      > I always assumed that was intentional. Well, yes, and I explained why. That doesn't make it less unfortunate. > Also, are you sure male/female can be genders? Yes. > If so, how is science supposed to refer to biological sex? With... exactly the language it does, for now. It is inconvenient for discussions where both sex and gender are involved that major categories of each have similar names, but most discussion of biological sex aren't impacted by that, and “sex” vs. “ascribed gender” vs. “gender identity” can be specified where necessary to disambiguate. It's hardly the only overloaded set of descriptors in the English language. Over time the language on one side or the other might evolve (I though femme and masc might evolve as gender terms, but they have instead become terms of presentation distinct from gender, which is another useful distinction.) > What makes something a gender? What makes it an ascribed gender is if society attributes it to be people and sees it as exclusive of other ascribed genders. What makes it a gender identity is if people view it as the aspect of their own identity in the same space as socially ascribed genders. > Is there a reason geek, or goth or whatever can't be a gender? There's no reason they can't be, but they usually aren't, either as ascribed genders or gender identities.
      • yucky 5y ago
        >There's no reason they can't be So if we're saying there is no reason goth or geek or whatever can't be considered gender, then we're just saying that gender is akin to personality type.
        • dragonwriter 5y ago
          > So if we're saying there is no reason goth or geek or whatever can't be considered gender That's not what I said. There's a very good reasons why, as they usually exist, those cannot be considered genders, and I provided that reason. There's no obvious logical (though there may be a practical) reason they couldn't not have the feature which makes them not genders, in which they could be genders, it's just that that doesn't actually happen. (Whether that's because of social inertia around gender categorizations or whether despite the label being a social construct there is some inherent human function of self-and-other gender categorizations which, even when one escapes socially imposed rigid binary stereotypes they still don't fit is...beyond the scope of what I am willing to stake a claim on.)