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You might find some of the writings of Thomas Sowell interesting. He is definitely not (R) but he goes over some of the issues with progressive politics in tra

You might find some of the writings of Thomas Sowell interesting. He is definitely not (R) but he goes over some of the issues with progressive politics in trapping both poor black and white through oppressive policies like minimum wage and also by trapping them into dependence on the state through transfer payments.

halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
OP never said Democrats are flawless, quite the contrary. They made the statement that even though Democrats are flawed, they are not as openly hostile and oppressive as Republicans are. So while your statement may be true, it’s not relevant to the point being made.
- notch656a 5y ago
  What did I say about Democrats? I didn't make a comment about what party was more or less flawless.
croon 5y ago
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell
sudosysgen 5y ago
The same Thomas Sowell who compared Obama to Hitler because he paid for environmental disaster mitigation? The same Thomas Sowell who violently criticized Obama for advocating that children should be automatically covered by their parent's insurance? If you actually think that laissez faire economics and the removal of the minimum wage would be a net benefit for anyone except the top 2% of the country you're delusional, and so is Sowell.
- notch656a 5y ago
  I'm not aware of any "violence" he perpetrated towards Obama unless you're using "violently" to describe political and economic speech, which of course is nonsense. The reference to 'Hitler' was only to describe a process where politicians rile up people who are not normally involved in politics. The BP oil spill was one of those opportunities. I don't think it's weird to make notes on the tactics of Hitler, or even compare those. And the process to 'accept' $20B from BP, without due process, under implied threat of the possibility regulatory impositions (which the President is in a good position to influence) was definitely an authoritarian move on Obama's part IMO. It's not the environmental mitigation that is questionable, but rather the process by which the funds were obtained and I think your representation here is intentionally misleading. >If you actually think that laissez faire economics and the removal of the minimum wage would be a net benefit for anyone except the top 2% of the country you're delusional, and so is Sowell. Oh definitely. The bottom 2% would be the biggest winners of eliminating minimum wage, because minimum wage essentially outlaws employing anyone who can generate less than minimum wage worth of value to an employer. But it's true, the top 2% would win too and so would everyone else. IMO it would be one of the most important tools to lift people out of poverty.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    >I'm not aware of any "violence" he perpetrated towards Obama If you interpret the phrase "violent criticism" as perpetrated violence, you are clearly doing whatever you can to interpret my argument in the worst people way. Allegory and metaphor are figures of speech anyone should understand when put forwards so plainly and with no other possible interpretation. >The reference to 'Hitler' was only to describe a process where politicians rile up people who are not normally involved in politics. The BP oil spill was one of those opportunities. I don't think it's weird to make notes on the tactics of Hitler, or even compare those. If you sincerely believe this you need study the run-up to WW2 in more detail. A politician trying to make the common person conscious of a real crisis which affects their lives and is representative of a serious systemic problem where greater public conscience is necessary is in no way comparable to the peddling of lies and conspiracy theories in order to drum up hatred against minorities in order to justify atrocities. If you honestly think this and go around repeating it, you are doing a great service to fascists all around the world by equating their methods to the way a democracy needs to operate. >And the process to 'accept' $20B from BP, without due process, under implied threat of the possibility regulatory impositions (which the President is in a good position to influence) was definitely an authoritarian move on Obama's part IMO. No, it was not. 20 billion dollars is far less than what BP should have paid for the oil spill. It was a deal he cut with BP so that the environmental crisis could be paid for without going through a decades long process by which time BP could have completely offloaded their assets or would have lost them due to the uncertainty of a ~100B$ fine hanging over their heads. It's exactly the same thing as a plea deal, except the perpetrator was caught doing the crime in broad daylight in front of thousands people. > It's not the environmental mitigation that is questionable, but rather the process by which the funds were obtained and I think your representation here is intentionally misleading. The process by which the funds were obtained is absolutely normal in the United States. If you have an issue with how lax regulation in the US is, you can say that instead of doing Hitler comparisons. >Oh definitely. The bottom 2% would be the biggest winners of eliminating minimum wage, because minimum wage essentially outlaws employing anyone who can generate less than minimum wage worth of value to an employer. But it's true, the top 2% would win too and so would everyone else. IMO it would be one of the most important tools to lift people out of poverty. No, they would not, and we both know this. There is a necessary amount of unemployment in any capitalist economy. If the bottom two percent magically got employed with a sub-minimum wage, the entire economy would suffer greatly from reduced wages and higher barriers to entry, or another 2% would find themselves unemployed anyways. A reserve army of labour is absolutely necessary. Reducing the minimum wage would hurt those people, because now on top of being unemployed, they also have much lower prospects once they do find employment. This is evident to anyone who thinks beyond incredibly simplistic supply-demand graphs whose interpretation contradicts itself.

halfmatthalfcat 5y ago

OP never said Democrats are flawless, quite the contrary. They made the statement that even though Democrats are flawed, they are not as openly hostile and oppressive as Republicans are. So while your statement may be true, it’s not relevant to the point being made.

notch656a 5y ago
What did I say about Democrats? I didn't make a comment about what party was more or less flawless.

croon 5y ago

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell

sudosysgen 5y ago

The same Thomas Sowell who compared Obama to Hitler because he paid for environmental disaster mitigation? The same Thomas Sowell who violently criticized Obama for advocating that children should be automatically covered by their parent's insurance? If you actually think that laissez faire economics and the removal of the minimum wage would be a net benefit for anyone except the top 2% of the country you're delusional, and so is Sowell.

notch656a 5y ago
I'm not aware of any "violence" he perpetrated towards Obama unless you're using "violently" to describe political and economic speech, which of course is nonsense. The reference to 'Hitler' was only to describe a process where politicians rile up people who are not normally involved in politics. The BP oil spill was one of those opportunities. I don't think it's weird to make notes on the tactics of Hitler, or even compare those. And the process to 'accept' $20B from BP, without due process, under implied threat of the possibility regulatory impositions (which the President is in a good position to influence) was definitely an authoritarian move on Obama's part IMO. It's not the environmental mitigation that is questionable, but rather the process by which the funds were obtained and I think your representation here is intentionally misleading. >If you actually think that laissez faire economics and the removal of the minimum wage would be a net benefit for anyone except the top 2% of the country you're delusional, and so is Sowell. Oh definitely. The bottom 2% would be the biggest winners of eliminating minimum wage, because minimum wage essentially outlaws employing anyone who can generate less than minimum wage worth of value to an employer. But it's true, the top 2% would win too and so would everyone else. IMO it would be one of the most important tools to lift people out of poverty.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  >I'm not aware of any "violence" he perpetrated towards Obama If you interpret the phrase "violent criticism" as perpetrated violence, you are clearly doing whatever you can to interpret my argument in the worst people way. Allegory and metaphor are figures of speech anyone should understand when put forwards so plainly and with no other possible interpretation. >The reference to 'Hitler' was only to describe a process where politicians rile up people who are not normally involved in politics. The BP oil spill was one of those opportunities. I don't think it's weird to make notes on the tactics of Hitler, or even compare those. If you sincerely believe this you need study the run-up to WW2 in more detail. A politician trying to make the common person conscious of a real crisis which affects their lives and is representative of a serious systemic problem where greater public conscience is necessary is in no way comparable to the peddling of lies and conspiracy theories in order to drum up hatred against minorities in order to justify atrocities. If you honestly think this and go around repeating it, you are doing a great service to fascists all around the world by equating their methods to the way a democracy needs to operate. >And the process to 'accept' $20B from BP, without due process, under implied threat of the possibility regulatory impositions (which the President is in a good position to influence) was definitely an authoritarian move on Obama's part IMO. No, it was not. 20 billion dollars is far less than what BP should have paid for the oil spill. It was a deal he cut with BP so that the environmental crisis could be paid for without going through a decades long process by which time BP could have completely offloaded their assets or would have lost them due to the uncertainty of a ~100B$ fine hanging over their heads. It's exactly the same thing as a plea deal, except the perpetrator was caught doing the crime in broad daylight in front of thousands people. > It's not the environmental mitigation that is questionable, but rather the process by which the funds were obtained and I think your representation here is intentionally misleading. The process by which the funds were obtained is absolutely normal in the United States. If you have an issue with how lax regulation in the US is, you can say that instead of doing Hitler comparisons. >Oh definitely. The bottom 2% would be the biggest winners of eliminating minimum wage, because minimum wage essentially outlaws employing anyone who can generate less than minimum wage worth of value to an employer. But it's true, the top 2% would win too and so would everyone else. IMO it would be one of the most important tools to lift people out of poverty. No, they would not, and we both know this. There is a necessary amount of unemployment in any capitalist economy. If the bottom two percent magically got employed with a sub-minimum wage, the entire economy would suffer greatly from reduced wages and higher barriers to entry, or another 2% would find themselves unemployed anyways. A reserve army of labour is absolutely necessary. Reducing the minimum wage would hurt those people, because now on top of being unemployed, they also have much lower prospects once they do find employment. This is evident to anyone who thinks beyond incredibly simplistic supply-demand graphs whose interpretation contradicts itself.