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> Who in their right mind has the courage to tackle a Java project without an IDE? onestly, as an old-jeezer, I still don't understand the hate on IDEs. Who i

by _ZeD_ 5y ago

> Who in their right mind has the courage to tackle a Java project without an IDE? onestly, as an old-jeezer, I still don't understand the hate on IDEs. Who in their right mind has the courage to tackle ANY project without an IDE? I constantly see my collegues insist to use vscode without plugins, then fork or COMMANDLINE GIT (ugh..) then external tool for viewing jsons, and explicitly use postman and whatever tool... and then fail to understand the very basic fact that an integrated collections of tools works better for the end user. ...I... I don'k know...

elsjaako 5y ago
Personally I've just have bad experiences with integrated tools like that. I'm sure if you just use it in some "normal" way it's fine, but I don't know how that is, and I've spent many hours wrestling with visual studio because the magic "easy to use" functionality stopped working or broke something. Add to that the interface changing with different versions. Having several tools that do one thing that I understand has led to less frustration for me.
ithkuil 5y ago
I tried and managed to avoid IDEs for years. Then I started to use rust for work. I accepted that I just had to use an IDE and I picked one. I was happy with CLion; it has a very good support for rust. Unfortunately I had to develop on a remote machine (because compiling rust in my local machine is too slow). Jetbrains solution for remote development just didn't work for my use case (the remote was a M1 ARM running MacOS, not supported by jetbrains gateway). So I switched to vscode. Vscode editor is great, the support for remote development is also very good. Unfortunately rust-analyzer is not as good as jetbrains's rust plugin. This is a problem with IDEs: you're either all in or you're out. Language servers did help decoupling language support from the actual window where you type stuff, but still not everything is in a language server (e.g. jetbrains rust plugin is not a reusable language server)
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Or just use remote desktop.
- drewm1980 5y ago
  Yeah... I really feel for new developers... On many codebases they're going to have a bad time without an IDE to navigate all the abstractions. And then they're going to have a bad time trying to get by when microservices and the cloud break their IDE workflow and they can't fall back on a decade of using tools like vim, ssh, tmux. By the time IDEs are rewritten to cope with all the productivity obstacles containtainerization introduced microservices will probably be back out if style.
pjmlp 5y ago
It is a macho thing I guess. I used MS-DOS since version 3.3 and my first UNIX in 1993. XEmacs became my refuge as there were hardly anything resembling the PC, Amiga, Mac,... IDEs. So 30 years later we have IDEs everywhere we get this anti-IDE attitude, some kind of CLI revivalism.

by _ZeD_ 5y ago

elsjaako 5y ago

Personally I've just have bad experiences with integrated tools like that. I'm sure if you just use it in some "normal" way it's fine, but I don't know how that is, and I've spent many hours wrestling with visual studio because the magic "easy to use" functionality stopped working or broke something. Add to that the interface changing with different versions. Having several tools that do one thing that I understand has led to less frustration for me.

ithkuil 5y ago

I tried and managed to avoid IDEs for years. Then I started to use rust for work. I accepted that I just had to use an IDE and I picked one. I was happy with CLion; it has a very good support for rust. Unfortunately I had to develop on a remote machine (because compiling rust in my local machine is too slow). Jetbrains solution for remote development just didn't work for my use case (the remote was a M1 ARM running MacOS, not supported by jetbrains gateway). So I switched to vscode. Vscode editor is great, the support for remote development is also very good. Unfortunately rust-analyzer is not as good as jetbrains's rust plugin. This is a problem with IDEs: you're either all in or you're out. Language servers did help decoupling language support from the actual window where you type stuff, but still not everything is in a language server (e.g. jetbrains rust plugin is not a reusable language server)

pjmlp 5y ago
Or just use remote desktop.
drewm1980 5y ago
Yeah... I really feel for new developers... On many codebases they're going to have a bad time without an IDE to navigate all the abstractions. And then they're going to have a bad time trying to get by when microservices and the cloud break their IDE workflow and they can't fall back on a decade of using tools like vim, ssh, tmux. By the time IDEs are rewritten to cope with all the productivity obstacles containtainerization introduced microservices will probably be back out if style.

pjmlp 5y ago

It is a macho thing I guess. I used MS-DOS since version 3.3 and my first UNIX in 1993. XEmacs became my refuge as there were hardly anything resembling the PC, Amiga, Mac,... IDEs. So 30 years later we have IDEs everywhere we get this anti-IDE attitude, some kind of CLI revivalism.