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I've been puzzled by people blaming "open borders" (Mexico vs United States) on President Biden. What changed? Did he fire the 20,000 border guards? If there is

I've been puzzled by people blaming "open borders" (Mexico vs United States) on President Biden. What changed? Did he fire the 20,000 border guards? If there is one thing that's driving this charge it's Mexican neighboorhoods popping up in many small towns across the South and West. Many "native" whites feel like it's an invasion. Well, nothing changed. It's not the Democrats doing. It's industry bring in Mexicans for cheap labor. For example, in chicken processing factories. Americans don't want these jobs. But corporations don't want small town Americans to blame them for the foreign influx, so they blame Democrats in a constant drum beat on right wing media. "Democrats need new voters. They get them by bringing them here and putting them on welfare." When their people are in charge, they get them to claim they're building a wall and they're dealing with this influx that happened under Democrats. Corporations and industry shift the blame away from themselves for any social problem caused by the influx of cheap labor, even though they are responsible for it. Nothing changes under either party in power, only the blame rhetoric gets changed. That's political science in America.

naasking 5y ago
> Americans don't want these jobs. They don't want these jobs at the current pay rates. Let's not forget the most important qualifier here.
- user249 5y ago
  No, this has been studied. Americans think bending over in artichoke fields in California or working in chicken and pig slaughtering plants are jobs suitbale for immigrants, not them. They seemingly can't put two and two together that's that is why Mexicans are here, unless everyone is participating in this charade that Mexicans come here for welfare and to vote for Democrats
  - naasking 5y ago
    Sure, Americans also don't want to work at McDonald's or as sanitation workers, or any number of other undesirable jobs, but they'll do it if they're unskilled and need the money, as long as it pays enough.
    - notahacker 5y ago
      You can work at McDonalds or in cleaning whilst living in or near your existing neighborhood, surrounded by family and friends, possible even in a house you own. Not so much moving to a different state to some isolated rural community to do unglamorous work, even if it pays more than McDonalds. cf Mexicans who think the move is part of the attraction (as well as obviously being more likely to be wowed by the salary offer and experienced in hard manual labour; there are seasonal farm work recruits who don't fit those two brackets though, like British university kids picking apples in New Zealand) If you're looking for the subset of manual labourers willing to move to remote locations, you're competing with oil companies that really well, and people aren't queuing round the block for those jobs either. Labour intensive food production isn't particularly likely to be able to compete with oil on salary.
  - notch656a 5y ago
    When the 'take our jobs' website first came up (immigrants offering citizens to take their jobs bending over artichoke fields and what not) I was one of the first to sign up. It turned out they didn't actually want people to take their jobs, and they never actually offered me a job even though I was 100% ready and wanting to take their job. These jobs are largely closed off to citizens through the old boy network of immigrants (I'm not impugning them for this, I'm very glad they're here working those jobs so I can eat). I ended up hitchhiking to North Dakota for one of the few labor jobs available, building housing for the oil rush.
    - user249 5y ago
      That's hilarious that you actually thought they were serious. No, they've got Mexican-American field managers in California who are second or third generation running crews of recent immigrant Mexicans with green cards. The last thing they want is some Anglo coming in to start demanding rights.
      - notch656a 5y ago
        At that time I was young and willing to do pretty much anything. The idea of living in a tent in a field sounded like a great way to save money. Even if the pay was $5 an hour, I figured I could save almost 100% just like the immigrants working these fields do, and then follow them back to Mexico where my money would last awhile. Hilariously I basically just wanted to join in on the same action.
        user249 5y ago
        I had the same idea but even if I spoke fluent Indian-Spanish dialect, which I don't, there was no chance of it happening. They have a system that works well for growers, 2nd and 3rd generation Mexican-Americans and recent Mexican immigrants and I'm sure it will be working the same long after I'm gone
- scarface74 5y ago
  As an American, even the poorest have other options besides working in fields. If you told an Amazon warehouse worker that they could make $36 an hour to work in a field instead of $18/hour ho work in a warehouse, how many would take them up on the offer?
  - naasking 5y ago
    Not sure, but it's not zero.
    - scarface74 5y ago
      They had plenty of stories where field owners couldn’t find Americans who would stick to the work for more than week. Would you work in the field for twice your current pay? If I had a choice between living by myself and making $36/hour working in a field and getting a roommate and working in a warehouse (or an Amazon delivery driver), guess which one I would choose?
      - naasking 5y ago
        > They had plenty of stories where field owners couldn’t find Americans who would stick to the work for more than week. Sure, because the pay or other benefits weren't good enough. There are sometimes other considerations as well, like that some of this work is temporary/seasonal and people want something steady. > If I had a choice between living by myself and making $36/hour working in a field and getting a roommate and working in a warehouse (or an Amazon delivery driver), guess which one I would choose? That's a weird question. You could easily keep working in that field and still get a roommate and you'd get to keep even more money.
        scarface74 5y ago
        That’s not the point. Once you have “enough” to meet your basic life needs - food, shelter, transportation - then you start making other choices. I am sure I could give up my big house in the burbs and my wife and I could stay with another couple. But do you think I would make that choice? On another related note, you saw the same thing with school bus drivers after Covid (my wife was one). No amount of money in the world was going to convince many bus drivers who didn’t really need the extra money to risk Covid to drive the bus. Many of them were just doing it for extra money. Anyone could have more money saved if they found a roommate. But at some point we decide it’s not worth the trade off.
323 5y ago
In fact Karl Marx was against "open borders", exactly because it's pro capital by depressing local wages: https://aussiesta.wordpress.com/2020/06/04/karl-marx-on-open-borders/ https://aussiesta.wordpress.com/2020/06/04/karl-marx-on-open...
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  It is -very- hard to enforce your will of virtual enslavement when you have open borders. Even Karl Marx knew it would take an iron fist and closed borders to enforce his form of government for the masses by the masses.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
nemothekid 5y ago
>Americans don't want these jobs. But corporations don't want small town Americans to blame them for the foreign influx, so they blame Democrats in a constant drum beat on right wing media It has nothing to do with Americans not wanting those jobs and more to do with undocumented immigration provides a workforce that can be underpaid and wont organize or ask for any benefits under threat of deportation. These farms pay under minimum wage to undocumented workers and provide 0 benefits; why would Americans work them. If either party were actually serious about this issue, they would start with fining corporations, not deportations.

naasking 5y ago

> Americans don't want these jobs. They don't want these jobs at the current pay rates. Let's not forget the most important qualifier here.

user249 5y ago
No, this has been studied. Americans think bending over in artichoke fields in California or working in chicken and pig slaughtering plants are jobs suitbale for immigrants, not them. They seemingly can't put two and two together that's that is why Mexicans are here, unless everyone is participating in this charade that Mexicans come here for welfare and to vote for Democrats
- naasking 5y ago
  Sure, Americans also don't want to work at McDonald's or as sanitation workers, or any number of other undesirable jobs, but they'll do it if they're unskilled and need the money, as long as it pays enough.
  - notahacker 5y ago
    You can work at McDonalds or in cleaning whilst living in or near your existing neighborhood, surrounded by family and friends, possible even in a house you own. Not so much moving to a different state to some isolated rural community to do unglamorous work, even if it pays more than McDonalds. cf Mexicans who think the move is part of the attraction (as well as obviously being more likely to be wowed by the salary offer and experienced in hard manual labour; there are seasonal farm work recruits who don't fit those two brackets though, like British university kids picking apples in New Zealand) If you're looking for the subset of manual labourers willing to move to remote locations, you're competing with oil companies that really well, and people aren't queuing round the block for those jobs either. Labour intensive food production isn't particularly likely to be able to compete with oil on salary.
- notch656a 5y ago
  When the 'take our jobs' website first came up (immigrants offering citizens to take their jobs bending over artichoke fields and what not) I was one of the first to sign up. It turned out they didn't actually want people to take their jobs, and they never actually offered me a job even though I was 100% ready and wanting to take their job. These jobs are largely closed off to citizens through the old boy network of immigrants (I'm not impugning them for this, I'm very glad they're here working those jobs so I can eat). I ended up hitchhiking to North Dakota for one of the few labor jobs available, building housing for the oil rush.
  - user249 5y ago
    That's hilarious that you actually thought they were serious. No, they've got Mexican-American field managers in California who are second or third generation running crews of recent immigrant Mexicans with green cards. The last thing they want is some Anglo coming in to start demanding rights.
    - notch656a 5y ago
      At that time I was young and willing to do pretty much anything. The idea of living in a tent in a field sounded like a great way to save money. Even if the pay was $5 an hour, I figured I could save almost 100% just like the immigrants working these fields do, and then follow them back to Mexico where my money would last awhile. Hilariously I basically just wanted to join in on the same action.
      - user249 5y ago
        I had the same idea but even if I spoke fluent Indian-Spanish dialect, which I don't, there was no chance of it happening. They have a system that works well for growers, 2nd and 3rd generation Mexican-Americans and recent Mexican immigrants and I'm sure it will be working the same long after I'm gone
scarface74 5y ago
As an American, even the poorest have other options besides working in fields. If you told an Amazon warehouse worker that they could make $36 an hour to work in a field instead of $18/hour ho work in a warehouse, how many would take them up on the offer?
- naasking 5y ago
  Not sure, but it's not zero.
  - scarface74 5y ago
    They had plenty of stories where field owners couldn’t find Americans who would stick to the work for more than week. Would you work in the field for twice your current pay? If I had a choice between living by myself and making $36/hour working in a field and getting a roommate and working in a warehouse (or an Amazon delivery driver), guess which one I would choose?
    - naasking 5y ago
      > They had plenty of stories where field owners couldn’t find Americans who would stick to the work for more than week. Sure, because the pay or other benefits weren't good enough. There are sometimes other considerations as well, like that some of this work is temporary/seasonal and people want something steady. > If I had a choice between living by myself and making $36/hour working in a field and getting a roommate and working in a warehouse (or an Amazon delivery driver), guess which one I would choose? That's a weird question. You could easily keep working in that field and still get a roommate and you'd get to keep even more money.
      - scarface74 5y ago
        That’s not the point. Once you have “enough” to meet your basic life needs - food, shelter, transportation - then you start making other choices. I am sure I could give up my big house in the burbs and my wife and I could stay with another couple. But do you think I would make that choice? On another related note, you saw the same thing with school bus drivers after Covid (my wife was one). No amount of money in the world was going to convince many bus drivers who didn’t really need the extra money to risk Covid to drive the bus. Many of them were just doing it for extra money. Anyone could have more money saved if they found a roommate. But at some point we decide it’s not worth the trade off.

323 5y ago

In fact Karl Marx was against "open borders", exactly because it's pro capital by depressing local wages: https://aussiesta.wordpress.com/2020/06/04/karl-marx-on-open-borders/ https://aussiesta.wordpress.com/2020/06/04/karl-marx-on-open...

stjohnswarts 5y ago
It is -very- hard to enforce your will of virtual enslavement when you have open borders. Even Karl Marx knew it would take an iron fist and closed borders to enforce his form of government for the masses by the masses.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

nemothekid 5y ago

>Americans don't want these jobs. But corporations don't want small town Americans to blame them for the foreign influx, so they blame Democrats in a constant drum beat on right wing media It has nothing to do with Americans not wanting those jobs and more to do with undocumented immigration provides a workforce that can be underpaid and wont organize or ask for any benefits under threat of deportation. These farms pay under minimum wage to undocumented workers and provide 0 benefits; why would Americans work them. If either party were actually serious about this issue, they would start with fining corporations, not deportations.