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> in my experience these tools open the imagination of what is possible and even more backend support is needed over time. I just don't buy the argument that v

> in my experience these tools open the imagination of what is possible and even more backend support is needed over time. I just don't buy the argument that visual programming tools are inherently more creative or imaginative than text-based programming tools because at some point, you are going to be constrained to the UI, which always comes with tradeoffs. I recently used a visual programming environment for a work project, and I went into it thinking that it would be a fun and interesting way to program and very quickly turned to hating it. The visual aspect of the tool constantly got in my way and I quickly found myself wishing I could accomplish what I was trying to do in my text editor instead of this godforsaken web UI. The error messaging in the tool was so bad that I wound up just intercepting the necessary HTTP calls and debugging those instead because it was so much simpler and informative than trying to navigate this "Disney World" UI that looked great with a trash UX. I'd be OK with a visual programming tool that gives users the option to go straight to the code layer if they choose, but I've worked for so many software companies in my career that I'm just not confident that most companies would be able to ship anything with a dev UX that comes close to working with code directly. You can't get away with "happy path"-ing a visual coding tool, which is how so many companies build software these days.

tempacct3575 5y ago
> I just don't buy the argument that visual programming tools are inherently more creative or imaginative than text-based programming tools because at some point, you are going to be constrained to the UI, which always comes with tradeoffs. They aren't inherently more creative for all people. For example there is a group of people that prefers LaTeX to MS Word - but it's undoubtable that Word is more accessible to more users. The creativity comes from letting business users directly iterate on the UI mockups and underlying process, which is possible in these tools. Instead of waiting a few months for an IT project to start, the users can create a mockup in a few days and iterate a few times before connecting to a real backend. I would have thought this was improbable 3 years ago, but personal experience has taught me that there are many business users capable of doing this. Most of the tools created with these platforms never "ship"; the primary users are often internal. At large companies, an internal app may have 10k users. Also, YMMV depending on the tool - some are much better than others at debugging complex flows.

tempacct3575 5y ago

> I just don't buy the argument that visual programming tools are inherently more creative or imaginative than text-based programming tools because at some point, you are going to be constrained to the UI, which always comes with tradeoffs. They aren't inherently more creative for all people. For example there is a group of people that prefers LaTeX to MS Word - but it's undoubtable that Word is more accessible to more users. The creativity comes from letting business users directly iterate on the UI mockups and underlying process, which is possible in these tools. Instead of waiting a few months for an IT project to start, the users can create a mockup in a few days and iterate a few times before connecting to a real backend. I would have thought this was improbable 3 years ago, but personal experience has taught me that there are many business users capable of doing this. Most of the tools created with these platforms never "ship"; the primary users are often internal. At large companies, an internal app may have 10k users. Also, YMMV depending on the tool - some are much better than others at debugging complex flows.