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Been waiting for 10 years for the legacy manufacturers to flood the market with BEV. As recently as a year ago, Toyota was still betting in hydrogen. Basically

Been waiting for 10 years for the legacy manufacturers to flood the market with BEV. As recently as a year ago, Toyota was still betting in hydrogen. Basically, I’ll believe it when you see it. Right now the BEV market is basically Tesla or sacrifices.

HarryHirsch 5y ago
Get a Nissan Leaf.
- myko 5y ago
  The reason Tesla wins out here to me is the super charging network and range. I'd prefer another car company, one without Elon's erratic behavior and substandard build quality, but overall they are the best electric vehicle and will be until someone else can compete on range and charging.
  - steveBK123 5y ago
    Exactly this. In most of US, ex-California, the non-Tesla charging networks are about 4 years behind on install locations/quantities. Plus they have tons of software issues (tons of EV reviews with drivers unable to charge at ElectrifyAmerica, etc). Meanwhile in 3.5 years of owning a Tesla, they have been filling in every gap in my trip charging needs, and introducing redundant charging locations on my journeys. In the NYC area, 200-300mi trips in the Tesla have evolved quickly with a BEV- * 2018 - OK there's one route to go on this journey that has charger, I've topped us up to 90% before we go, so don't miss the turn & everyone time your bladder to this one stop * 2019 - Alright we are at 90% and there's a couple places we can charge along the way, as long as we take routes A or B.. and the backup charger on route B might be 10mi off the highway driving through some backroads at night in rural NJ * 2020 - Oh cool they added chargers to a couple more of those NJTP/I95 rest stops * 2021 - OK there are chargers at basically all the NJTP/I95 rest stops I used to stop for gas * 2022 - It's winter & the battery is above 50%, we'll pass 2 chargers on the way to/from regardless of which route we go .. so we'll charge whenever is convenient to someone needing to stop for drink or bathroom So living in 2022 with a Tesla charging network, it's hard for me to imagine going back to my 2018 style of driving with the very attractive MachE / Polestar2 / Taycan / Ioniq 5 / etc.
  - kjksf 5y ago
    Other car makers have the most beautiful people at the top. Nissan - ex-CEO is an international fugitive. Audi - ex-CEO in jail for dieselgate. Volkswagen - the whole dieselgate cheating scandal Volkswagen - Diess barely escaped criminal prosecution for not disclosing diselgate early enough Ford - a new CEO every month All German car makers - found to fix prices and delay innovation (related to, but not the same as dieselgate) UAW (representing car workers in US) - a giant corruption scandal, bribed by FCA and embezzling funds, 16 people in jail Toyota and Stellantis : both CEO currently peddling lies about how transition to EVs will destroy the economy and kill electric grid GM - Mary Bara lies, on TV, multiple times, about GM being an EV leader, despite GM delivering 26 cars in Q4 But sure, it's Elon's "erratic" behavior that is a problem.
    - HarryHirsch 5y ago
      Elon Musk's calculated disregard for the law is a major problem. It was on view when he built his Berlin factory in a water catchment area.
    - literallycancer 5y ago
      So your complaint against Japanese carmakers is that they aren't trendy enough? Not nearly as bad as the rest of your examples. What about the Koreans?
  - freemint 5y ago
    Super charging is less of an issue in Europe as all charging station were made to use standardized plugs meaning there is not an as large advantage in Tesla's network.
- Retric 5y ago
  The leaf is still a major compromise. The 149-mile range on a 2022 base model is a real issue in practice. Smaller ranges mean more charge cycles which causes faster battery degradation in a vicious cycle. Assuming you follow guidelines and don’t fully charge or discharge the battery you quickly end up with under 100 miles of useable range. It is ok for some drivers, but it’s simply not enough for most people. The 226 mile version is significantly better, but that’s all they offer.
- pvaldes 5y ago
  I had seen an hybrid Nissan turned into plastic carnage just 15 days ago. Apparently the car confused a line for blind people in the sidewalk with a continuous line and blocked the steering wheel (refusing to invade "the other lane"). The car was parked and one minute later crashed at 5Km/h against a lamppost. I assume that Tesla is not the only maker having problems with those autopilot features.
steveBK123 5y ago
Re: Volumes Yeah it's really something. The supply chain issues probably pushed the convergence out 3-5 years. It doesn't help that most of them haven't secured a fixed battery supply the way Tesla has. Just this year between recalls & battery delays in new product rollouts, GM shipped something like 400 (not 400K, literally 400) BEVs in Q4. Ford is targeting to ship ~300K BEVs in 2023 which is only an aspiration and would bring them to 2018-2019 Tesla volumes. With the doubling of Tesla production rates annually and new factories about to open, Tesla could be at 2M/year by 2023. I wouldn't mind some other makers at least coming closer so I can make my 2nd vehicle a non-Tesla BEV. Tesla is fun but it's a very opinionated car (like Apple) with design choices that cannot be optioned away (yoke, falcon wing doors, gear stalk removal, touch screen UI dependence, etc). Re: production quality It shouldn't be a huge surprised that ~2018 era Teslas are doing poorly on inspections now. Watch Munro tear downs and the evolution of the build quality over time has gone from early 90s Hyundai to actually impressing him.
littlestymaar 5y ago
It's not as if Tesla “flooded the market” either in that period. The EV market was just niche so far, and if it's changing recently, it's benefiting historic manufacturers at least as much as Tesla. Right now, you can find EV for every price tag and since a Tesla gets you the quality of a cheap one for the price of a high end one, its main value is as a status symbol.
- oxplot 5y ago
  > It's not as if Tesla “flooded the market” either in that period. You don't seem to be familiar with how long it takes to ramp up production of a 10000+ component product, based on a ground up design in just about every aspect. Tesla, founded 20 years ago, sold 1 million vehicles in 2021, that's half of what Mercedes, a century old company sold in the same period. > its main value is as a status symbol. Go have a free test drive in one. And then in some other "cheap ones". All I have to say.
  - littlestymaar 5y ago
    > You don't seem to be familiar with how long it takes to ramp up production of a 10000+ component product, based on a ground up design in just about every aspect. You've completely missed the point. For the past decade the market for EV was just not there. Tesla accounts for less than 25% of the EV sold this year, which is a clear indication that the amount of EV sold wasn't limited by Tesla's production abilities. > Go have a free test drive in one. And then in some other "cheap ones". All I have to say. Have you ever driven a German car? The Tesla is a typical American car, less comfortable and less reliable than it should be for the price tag. No wonder why Germans and Japanese took over the US market for ICE cars years ago. Tesla has the first mover advantage and the status symbol (“like Apple but for cars”).
    - oxplot 5y ago
      > For the past decade the market for EV was just not there. Then please explain to me why Tesla, during the past decade being one of the few BEV manufacturers has always been limited by production only, despite never ever advertising in its entire history? > Tesla accounts for less than 25% of the EV sold this year, which is a clear indication that the amount of EV sold wasn't limited by Tesla's production abilities. You're clueless. Try buying a Tesla right now, or for the past year. Go ahead. Try putting an order in and see when you it gets delivered to you and tell me if that's because they love their cars so much, they don't want to part ways with them or it's because they can't keep up with demand. > Have you ever driven a German car? I have driven more cars than I care to count. Ask me how Tesla is better than all of them in all the ways that matters. > The Tesla is a typical American car, less comfortable and less reliable than it should be for the price tag. And yet the demand for it so high, you have to wait a year to get one. Looks like comfort isn't the only thing that sells cars. > No wonder why Germans and Japanese took over the US market for ICE cars years ago. Sun never set on British empire once too. So what? > Tesla has the first mover advantage. What, like Apple did with iPhone? > status symbol (“like Apple but for cars”). Ye, whatever you say.
namdnay 5y ago
Nissan Leaf, Renault Zoe, Kia eNiro/Hyundai Kona, Hyundai EV6, Skoda Enyaq, BMW i series, Mercedes EQ series... the list goes on
- biehl 5y ago
  Well, I have been waiting 6+ months for my Enyaq now, I could have had a Model Y well before… this leaves me not that worried for my Tesla shares…
  - namdnay 5y ago
    The waiting lists are just as long for the Model Y, no?
    - rwiggum 5y ago
      No, model Y performance is about 4-6 weeks in USA at least
      - namdnay 5y ago
        I mean in markets where you can buy the Skoda
        biehl 5y ago
        No, in Denmark at least it is 2 months for Model Y, and 6 months for Enyaq.
MobileVet 5y ago
It has been a long wait, but I would argue the moment is finally arriving. Ford is leading the charge with their F150 and mustang, both highly desirable and mainstream. The mustang is on the roads now, the F150 will be in a quarter. Kia and Hyundai are on the cusp with their common EV platform that the Ioniq 5 and EV6 are built on. The 5 is out, the 6 is out in Europe. Volvo is also pushing in fairly strongly, both internally and with their Polestar subsidiary. Volkswagen has the ID4 on the roads. Long story short, I am in the market and there are a lot more options than Tesla and many are established brands with far better manufacturing than Tesla.
throwawayts71 5y ago
In case of Toyota, there are 2 BEVs to look forward to this year. Toyota bZ4X / Subaru Solterra Lexus RZ

HarryHirsch 5y ago

Get a Nissan Leaf.

myko 5y ago
The reason Tesla wins out here to me is the super charging network and range. I'd prefer another car company, one without Elon's erratic behavior and substandard build quality, but overall they are the best electric vehicle and will be until someone else can compete on range and charging.
- steveBK123 5y ago
  Exactly this. In most of US, ex-California, the non-Tesla charging networks are about 4 years behind on install locations/quantities. Plus they have tons of software issues (tons of EV reviews with drivers unable to charge at ElectrifyAmerica, etc). Meanwhile in 3.5 years of owning a Tesla, they have been filling in every gap in my trip charging needs, and introducing redundant charging locations on my journeys. In the NYC area, 200-300mi trips in the Tesla have evolved quickly with a BEV- * 2018 - OK there's one route to go on this journey that has charger, I've topped us up to 90% before we go, so don't miss the turn & everyone time your bladder to this one stop * 2019 - Alright we are at 90% and there's a couple places we can charge along the way, as long as we take routes A or B.. and the backup charger on route B might be 10mi off the highway driving through some backroads at night in rural NJ * 2020 - Oh cool they added chargers to a couple more of those NJTP/I95 rest stops * 2021 - OK there are chargers at basically all the NJTP/I95 rest stops I used to stop for gas * 2022 - It's winter & the battery is above 50%, we'll pass 2 chargers on the way to/from regardless of which route we go .. so we'll charge whenever is convenient to someone needing to stop for drink or bathroom So living in 2022 with a Tesla charging network, it's hard for me to imagine going back to my 2018 style of driving with the very attractive MachE / Polestar2 / Taycan / Ioniq 5 / etc.
- kjksf 5y ago
  Other car makers have the most beautiful people at the top. Nissan - ex-CEO is an international fugitive. Audi - ex-CEO in jail for dieselgate. Volkswagen - the whole dieselgate cheating scandal Volkswagen - Diess barely escaped criminal prosecution for not disclosing diselgate early enough Ford - a new CEO every month All German car makers - found to fix prices and delay innovation (related to, but not the same as dieselgate) UAW (representing car workers in US) - a giant corruption scandal, bribed by FCA and embezzling funds, 16 people in jail Toyota and Stellantis : both CEO currently peddling lies about how transition to EVs will destroy the economy and kill electric grid GM - Mary Bara lies, on TV, multiple times, about GM being an EV leader, despite GM delivering 26 cars in Q4 But sure, it's Elon's "erratic" behavior that is a problem.
  - HarryHirsch 5y ago
    Elon Musk's calculated disregard for the law is a major problem. It was on view when he built his Berlin factory in a water catchment area.
  - literallycancer 5y ago
    So your complaint against Japanese carmakers is that they aren't trendy enough? Not nearly as bad as the rest of your examples. What about the Koreans?
- freemint 5y ago
  Super charging is less of an issue in Europe as all charging station were made to use standardized plugs meaning there is not an as large advantage in Tesla's network.
Retric 5y ago
The leaf is still a major compromise. The 149-mile range on a 2022 base model is a real issue in practice. Smaller ranges mean more charge cycles which causes faster battery degradation in a vicious cycle. Assuming you follow guidelines and don’t fully charge or discharge the battery you quickly end up with under 100 miles of useable range. It is ok for some drivers, but it’s simply not enough for most people. The 226 mile version is significantly better, but that’s all they offer.
pvaldes 5y ago
I had seen an hybrid Nissan turned into plastic carnage just 15 days ago. Apparently the car confused a line for blind people in the sidewalk with a continuous line and blocked the steering wheel (refusing to invade "the other lane"). The car was parked and one minute later crashed at 5Km/h against a lamppost. I assume that Tesla is not the only maker having problems with those autopilot features.

steveBK123 5y ago

Re: Volumes Yeah it's really something. The supply chain issues probably pushed the convergence out 3-5 years. It doesn't help that most of them haven't secured a fixed battery supply the way Tesla has. Just this year between recalls & battery delays in new product rollouts, GM shipped something like 400 (not 400K, literally 400) BEVs in Q4. Ford is targeting to ship ~300K BEVs in 2023 which is only an aspiration and would bring them to 2018-2019 Tesla volumes. With the doubling of Tesla production rates annually and new factories about to open, Tesla could be at 2M/year by 2023. I wouldn't mind some other makers at least coming closer so I can make my 2nd vehicle a non-Tesla BEV. Tesla is fun but it's a very opinionated car (like Apple) with design choices that cannot be optioned away (yoke, falcon wing doors, gear stalk removal, touch screen UI dependence, etc). Re: production quality It shouldn't be a huge surprised that ~2018 era Teslas are doing poorly on inspections now. Watch Munro tear downs and the evolution of the build quality over time has gone from early 90s Hyundai to actually impressing him.

littlestymaar 5y ago

It's not as if Tesla “flooded the market” either in that period. The EV market was just niche so far, and if it's changing recently, it's benefiting historic manufacturers at least as much as Tesla. Right now, you can find EV for every price tag and since a Tesla gets you the quality of a cheap one for the price of a high end one, its main value is as a status symbol.

oxplot 5y ago
> It's not as if Tesla “flooded the market” either in that period. You don't seem to be familiar with how long it takes to ramp up production of a 10000+ component product, based on a ground up design in just about every aspect. Tesla, founded 20 years ago, sold 1 million vehicles in 2021, that's half of what Mercedes, a century old company sold in the same period. > its main value is as a status symbol. Go have a free test drive in one. And then in some other "cheap ones". All I have to say.
- littlestymaar 5y ago
  > You don't seem to be familiar with how long it takes to ramp up production of a 10000+ component product, based on a ground up design in just about every aspect. You've completely missed the point. For the past decade the market for EV was just not there. Tesla accounts for less than 25% of the EV sold this year, which is a clear indication that the amount of EV sold wasn't limited by Tesla's production abilities. > Go have a free test drive in one. And then in some other "cheap ones". All I have to say. Have you ever driven a German car? The Tesla is a typical American car, less comfortable and less reliable than it should be for the price tag. No wonder why Germans and Japanese took over the US market for ICE cars years ago. Tesla has the first mover advantage and the status symbol (“like Apple but for cars”).
  - oxplot 5y ago
    > For the past decade the market for EV was just not there. Then please explain to me why Tesla, during the past decade being one of the few BEV manufacturers has always been limited by production only, despite never ever advertising in its entire history? > Tesla accounts for less than 25% of the EV sold this year, which is a clear indication that the amount of EV sold wasn't limited by Tesla's production abilities. You're clueless. Try buying a Tesla right now, or for the past year. Go ahead. Try putting an order in and see when you it gets delivered to you and tell me if that's because they love their cars so much, they don't want to part ways with them or it's because they can't keep up with demand. > Have you ever driven a German car? I have driven more cars than I care to count. Ask me how Tesla is better than all of them in all the ways that matters. > The Tesla is a typical American car, less comfortable and less reliable than it should be for the price tag. And yet the demand for it so high, you have to wait a year to get one. Looks like comfort isn't the only thing that sells cars. > No wonder why Germans and Japanese took over the US market for ICE cars years ago. Sun never set on British empire once too. So what? > Tesla has the first mover advantage. What, like Apple did with iPhone? > status symbol (“like Apple but for cars”). Ye, whatever you say.

namdnay 5y ago

Nissan Leaf, Renault Zoe, Kia eNiro/Hyundai Kona, Hyundai EV6, Skoda Enyaq, BMW i series, Mercedes EQ series... the list goes on

biehl 5y ago
Well, I have been waiting 6+ months for my Enyaq now, I could have had a Model Y well before… this leaves me not that worried for my Tesla shares…
- namdnay 5y ago
  The waiting lists are just as long for the Model Y, no?
  - rwiggum 5y ago
    No, model Y performance is about 4-6 weeks in USA at least
    - namdnay 5y ago
      I mean in markets where you can buy the Skoda
      - biehl 5y ago
        No, in Denmark at least it is 2 months for Model Y, and 6 months for Enyaq.

MobileVet 5y ago

It has been a long wait, but I would argue the moment is finally arriving. Ford is leading the charge with their F150 and mustang, both highly desirable and mainstream. The mustang is on the roads now, the F150 will be in a quarter. Kia and Hyundai are on the cusp with their common EV platform that the Ioniq 5 and EV6 are built on. The 5 is out, the 6 is out in Europe. Volvo is also pushing in fairly strongly, both internally and with their Polestar subsidiary. Volkswagen has the ID4 on the roads. Long story short, I am in the market and there are a lot more options than Tesla and many are established brands with far better manufacturing than Tesla.

throwawayts71 5y ago

In case of Toyota, there are 2 BEVs to look forward to this year. Toyota bZ4X / Subaru Solterra Lexus RZ