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Each hour put in as a manager is many times the return of you as an IC (for better or worse). As technical work is an endless pit of time, it’s very difficult t

Each hour put in as a manager is many times the return of you as an IC (for better or worse). As technical work is an endless pit of time, it’s very difficult to be a hands on manager that’s effective.

ahelwer 5y ago
Very entertaining to read a thread of managers telling themselves they shouldn't do any work, and then simultaneously describing not doing any work as "many times the return of you as an IC" (presumably counting themselves not interfering with the people doing the actual work as equivalent to doing the sum of that work).
- gompertz 5y ago
  No kidding... We got managers here saying they don't know a lick of Python their "IC's" [1] work on, or they can only contribute by ordering pizza when their team is working hard. Seriously...talk about textbook Dunning-Kruger. It use to be people got promoted to manager from becoming experts in the task they would now manage... Now they are spawned from business school, I guess. It's fine to be a manager and manage a team, set goals, deliverables etc etc... yes, it's a real job. But damn you for not being able to roll up your own sleeves and put pen to paper with the rest of your team to achieve those goals. [1] This business jargon term has seriously got to go. It's bullshit and oddly demeaning.
- flyinglizard 5y ago
  Managers do work. They decide you what need to be done, when it’s due, they coordinate processes inside and outside the team, they (hopefully) review what gets implemented, make sure the team has the physical things it needs, build budgets and roadmaps, isolate the team from organizational bullshit, work on hiring and more. It’s quite simple - you as a manager can only do the work of one IC but your are responsible for multiple ICs. If they sit idle, make the wrong decisions, are demoralized or leave the company, you hurt the org much more than help by technical contributions yourself. I’d put the cutoff at about a team of 6. Below 6 you can do technical work yourself, above 6 you’re better off taking care of your team.
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
  I don’t especially care what people think of the job I did, or how I did it. I made enough to be where I am, today, and I like it. It was what it was, and it is what it is. I just wrote about my own experience, and my own feelings about that experience, as opposed to rendering judgment (look through my posting history, here, and you’ll find very little judgment of others. I am too old and tired to fight. I have better things to do with my time, other than TCP/IP posturing).
- caseysoftware 5y ago
  If you think "hands on keyboard coding" is the primary/only form of work that matters, then you've missed out on a lot. Of the best managers I've worked for, one of the most obviously important things they did was keep other teams off our backs. Constant interruptions, shifting priorities, "just a quick question", and the like do more to destroy a team and its progress than anything else. Their name doesn't get attached to lines of code or completed items but a lot more things get completed as a result.
  - ahelwer 5y ago
    If you want that then hire someone to stand outside your office with a stick and reply rudely to emails. We don't need to give them hiring/firing/promotion/rewards authority.
    - gompertz 5y ago
      Completely alarming this comment is being down voted. It's 100% true.
      - labawi 5y ago
        I guess it depends on what the person is doing. A guy with a stick won't be negotiating timelines and requirements, explaining why things can't / won't / weren't done, dealing with fallout or shifting the requirements / timelines of others based on teams productivity. Do they need to be the one with hiring/firing/promotion/rewards authority? I don't know.
    - BigRedDog1669 5y ago
      As an IC you can't tell other teams managers or higher ups or PMs to fuck off if they call you directly and tell you they think what you are doing isn't good. Or if they ask for unreasonable stuff. At least without fear of getting fired. A manager needs to prevent this from happening
      - ahelwer 5y ago
- sulam 5y ago
  Your imagination is very far from the reality of what managers do. I’ll give you a run-down of my day: 1) reading emails. These emails generally consist of a few categories of things — stuff I need to be informed about, questions, asks for permission (a special form of question), documents (generally decision and decision docs, or stuff from Product), and meeting requests. 2) meetings. These meetings generally consist of stuff that couldn’t be handled over email, but is a lot of the same stuff. It’s also status updates, not from my staff, but with my peers. 1:1s and staff meeting (mine and my manager’s) are the balance. 3) There is no 3. Really, it’s a full time job to do 1 and 2. Every now and then I will carve out some time to write a document myself, but in general that gets delegated because I will do it more slowly than someone who doesn’t have a pile of time-sensitive email and meetings to deal with.
  - ahelwer 5y ago
    You are mistaken, this is literally - word for word - my imagination of what managers do.
    - sulam 5y ago
      Well then you are mistaken in your characterization of this not being work.
      - ahelwer 5y ago
        Replying to emails and sitting in meetings thinking of the best way to tell other people how to do the actual work isn't work, no. Oh I forgot - we give the people who do this control over the employment of the people who do the actual work. Very weird system.
        sciprojguy 5y ago
        Former manager here - you'd be very surprised at how much effort it takes to act as a human shield for your developers to keep the interruptions to a minimum and keep their roadmap stable. It's work, and it can be delicate. Try running interference with a company president who wants to bother your developers when they're trying to get something out the door, or trying to make sure stupid ideas die before they become your team's problem.

ahelwer 5y ago

Very entertaining to read a thread of managers telling themselves they shouldn't do any work, and then simultaneously describing not doing any work as "many times the return of you as an IC" (presumably counting themselves not interfering with the people doing the actual work as equivalent to doing the sum of that work).

gompertz 5y ago
No kidding... We got managers here saying they don't know a lick of Python their "IC's" [1] work on, or they can only contribute by ordering pizza when their team is working hard. Seriously...talk about textbook Dunning-Kruger. It use to be people got promoted to manager from becoming experts in the task they would now manage... Now they are spawned from business school, I guess. It's fine to be a manager and manage a team, set goals, deliverables etc etc... yes, it's a real job. But damn you for not being able to roll up your own sleeves and put pen to paper with the rest of your team to achieve those goals. [1] This business jargon term has seriously got to go. It's bullshit and oddly demeaning.
flyinglizard 5y ago
Managers do work. They decide you what need to be done, when it’s due, they coordinate processes inside and outside the team, they (hopefully) review what gets implemented, make sure the team has the physical things it needs, build budgets and roadmaps, isolate the team from organizational bullshit, work on hiring and more. It’s quite simple - you as a manager can only do the work of one IC but your are responsible for multiple ICs. If they sit idle, make the wrong decisions, are demoralized or leave the company, you hurt the org much more than help by technical contributions yourself. I’d put the cutoff at about a team of 6. Below 6 you can do technical work yourself, above 6 you’re better off taking care of your team.
ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
I don’t especially care what people think of the job I did, or how I did it. I made enough to be where I am, today, and I like it. It was what it was, and it is what it is. I just wrote about my own experience, and my own feelings about that experience, as opposed to rendering judgment (look through my posting history, here, and you’ll find very little judgment of others. I am too old and tired to fight. I have better things to do with my time, other than TCP/IP posturing).
caseysoftware 5y ago
If you think "hands on keyboard coding" is the primary/only form of work that matters, then you've missed out on a lot. Of the best managers I've worked for, one of the most obviously important things they did was keep other teams off our backs. Constant interruptions, shifting priorities, "just a quick question", and the like do more to destroy a team and its progress than anything else. Their name doesn't get attached to lines of code or completed items but a lot more things get completed as a result.
- ahelwer 5y ago
  If you want that then hire someone to stand outside your office with a stick and reply rudely to emails. We don't need to give them hiring/firing/promotion/rewards authority.
  - gompertz 5y ago
    Completely alarming this comment is being down voted. It's 100% true.
    - labawi 5y ago
      I guess it depends on what the person is doing. A guy with a stick won't be negotiating timelines and requirements, explaining why things can't / won't / weren't done, dealing with fallout or shifting the requirements / timelines of others based on teams productivity. Do they need to be the one with hiring/firing/promotion/rewards authority? I don't know.
  - BigRedDog1669 5y ago
    As an IC you can't tell other teams managers or higher ups or PMs to fuck off if they call you directly and tell you they think what you are doing isn't good. Or if they ask for unreasonable stuff. At least without fear of getting fired. A manager needs to prevent this from happening
    - ahelwer 5y ago
sulam 5y ago
Your imagination is very far from the reality of what managers do. I’ll give you a run-down of my day: 1) reading emails. These emails generally consist of a few categories of things — stuff I need to be informed about, questions, asks for permission (a special form of question), documents (generally decision and decision docs, or stuff from Product), and meeting requests. 2) meetings. These meetings generally consist of stuff that couldn’t be handled over email, but is a lot of the same stuff. It’s also status updates, not from my staff, but with my peers. 1:1s and staff meeting (mine and my manager’s) are the balance. 3) There is no 3. Really, it’s a full time job to do 1 and 2. Every now and then I will carve out some time to write a document myself, but in general that gets delegated because I will do it more slowly than someone who doesn’t have a pile of time-sensitive email and meetings to deal with.
- ahelwer 5y ago
  You are mistaken, this is literally - word for word - my imagination of what managers do.
  - sulam 5y ago
    Well then you are mistaken in your characterization of this not being work.
    - ahelwer 5y ago
      Replying to emails and sitting in meetings thinking of the best way to tell other people how to do the actual work isn't work, no. Oh I forgot - we give the people who do this control over the employment of the people who do the actual work. Very weird system.
      - sciprojguy 5y ago
        Former manager here - you'd be very surprised at how much effort it takes to act as a human shield for your developers to keep the interruptions to a minimum and keep their roadmap stable. It's work, and it can be delicate. Try running interference with a company president who wants to bother your developers when they're trying to get something out the door, or trying to make sure stupid ideas die before they become your team's problem.