4 ms·

If transwoman = woman, wouldn't it logically follow that woman = transwoman?

by yucky 5y ago

dragonwriter 5y ago
> If transwoman = woman, wouldn't it logically follow that woman = transwoman? A trans woman's gender identity (and ascribed gender in a system which ascribes gender based on identity when known) is just woman (or, rather, female; “woman” mixes in another orthogonal category to gender, age.) A trans woman’s relationship of gender identity to gender ascribed at birth is trans. “trans woman” is not a separate gender from “woman” (or “cis woman”), in much the same way that “woman” is not a separate gender from “girl” or “Black woman” is not a separate gender from “Asian woman”. Saying that Black women are not a separate, subordinate gender from women is not saying “woman = Black woman”.
- yucky 5y ago
  This line of thinking requires us to pretend there is no connection between sex and gender. But that raises bigger issues. For one, if gender has no relation to sex then what is it? Is tomboy a gender? Hipster? Geek? If not, why not? Also, if we are going to assert that there is no relation to sex, then why are the acronyms FtM and MtF used in the trans community? Male & female are biological sexes, not genders. So how does one transition between biological sexes? Not trying to be combative, just not clear on how these issues are handled in the community. I'm an outsider so I know that I may just not have the information. Looking for clarity.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > This line of thinking requires us to pretend there is no connection between sex and gender. No, it doesn't. In fact, the view of gender identity as innate is perfectly consistent with viewing it as one of many sex traits (whose distribution with regard to other sex traits is itself consistent with the bimodal-but-not-binary distribution of other sex traits.) > why are the acronyms FtM and MtF used in the trans community? mostly, AFAICT, they aren't; it's been years since I've seen them used except by people outside of the community and/or in marketing to the trans fetishist audience. I don't see trans people describing themselves as MtF, I see those who that label used by others would apply to describing themselves as “woman”, “trans woman”, or “(trans) woman who is AMAB (assigned male at birth)”. > Male & female are biological sexes, not genders. No, they are the names of both biological sexes [0] and the genders stereotypically ascribed based on sex traits. It is inconvenient that the names are identical, but they serve as both, because of historical sex essentialism in assignment of ascribed social roles. MtF and FtM refer to (imposed ascribed gender) to (gender identity and aspirational ascribed gender). [0] arguably, though arguably the mapping of multidimensional sex traits to binary “sexes” is itself really just another system of ascribed gender.
    - yucky 5y ago
      >It is in inconvenient that the names are identical I always assumed that was intentional. Also, are you sure male/female can be genders? If so, how is science supposed to refer to biological sex? You don't see this issue in animal classifications so I'm stumped. I'm still not sure what gender actually is then. What makes something a gender? Is there a reason geek, or goth or whatever can't be a gender?
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > I always assumed that was intentional. Well, yes, and I explained why. That doesn't make it less unfortunate. > Also, are you sure male/female can be genders? Yes. > If so, how is science supposed to refer to biological sex? With... exactly the language it does, for now. It is inconvenient for discussions where both sex and gender are involved that major categories of each have similar names, but most discussion of biological sex aren't impacted by that, and “sex” vs. “ascribed gender” vs. “gender identity” can be specified where necessary to disambiguate. It's hardly the only overloaded set of descriptors in the English language. Over time the language on one side or the other might evolve (I though femme and masc might evolve as gender terms, but they have instead become terms of presentation distinct from gender, which is another useful distinction.) > What makes something a gender? What makes it an ascribed gender is if society attributes it to be people and sees it as exclusive of other ascribed genders. What makes it a gender identity is if people view it as the aspect of their own identity in the same space as socially ascribed genders. > Is there a reason geek, or goth or whatever can't be a gender? There's no reason they can't be, but they usually aren't, either as ascribed genders or gender identities.
        yucky 5y ago
        >There's no reason they can't be So if we're saying there is no reason goth or geek or whatever can't be considered gender, then we're just saying that gender is akin to personality type.
        dragonwriter 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
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chrisdirkis 5y ago
If all dogs are animals, it wouldn't follow that all animals are dogs
- yucky 5y ago
  Except in this analogy it would be calling dogs human, not animals. Transwoman is not a subset of woman, it is a different thing entirely. Not meant in a pejorative way, just definitionally. That is unless we are just equating gender to personality type, since using this approach makes gender essentially undefinable. It means goth or geek or whatever can be called genders.
  - zzo38computer 5y ago
    I can understand the point, but I do not agree. While that definition is possible, I think that it is unnecessary. "Woman" is the gender (she/her/etc, and commonly associated with many social traits, too), and "transwoman" means (as far as I understand it) a woman who is assigned as male at birth (whether or not she is male now, or even if that question has a clear answer, which in some cases it doesn't). (Another possibility, that some writers had used in the past, is using the pronouns as nouns. That might not work in all languages, though.) If being biologically male/female is what is relevant instead of gender (grammatically male/female) then you can say that, but that isn't really that simple anyways (and the sex is not quite as well-defined as many people say it is anyways) and so it is better to specify specifically what is needed. I once saw the mention of a medical form that instead of male/female it says "persons with [some organ or condition, I forget which one]". It isn't due to political correctness; there is an actual good reason, which is that presumably this is the specific aspect which is important for this medical procedure. However, "mother" and "father" are different. You could use these words in the biological meaning or in the adoptive meaning (even if they are your biological parents). (Maybe there should be other words, e.g. maybe "mom" and "dad" for the "adoptive" meanings instead.) If adoptive, then it would seem to be related to gender (and is unclear if the gender does not apply, then what?). If biological, then it is different, and has to do with function instead of with grammar/social. If you are pregnant with your child then you will be that child's mother, regardless of your sex and/or gender in your past, present, and future. Consider hypothetically, that somehow somehow can be changed and have both reproductive functions, that you might be one child's mother and another child's father at the same time! I do not understand how is "goth", "geek", etc as a gender, since gender is a grammatical construct. What will be the pronouns, prefixes/suffixes (for languages that use them), titles, etc (if any)? (Maybe there is one, but if so, I do not know what it is.) Doctors may use "Dr." in front of their name, but not pronouns for them, so even though there is that I wouldn't call that a gender, either. I had once mentioned the possibility of someone's gender being different in different languages; I don't know whether or not any people choose to do that, though.

If transwoman = woman, wouldn't it logically follow that woman = transwoman?

by yucky 5y ago

If transwoman = woman, wouldn't it logically follow that woman = transwoman?

> If transwoman = woman, wouldn't it logically follow that woman = transwoman? A trans woman's gender identity (and ascribed gender in a system which ascribes gender based on identity when known) is just woman (or, rather, female; “woman” mixes in another orthogonal category to gender, age.) A trans woman’s relationship of gender identity to gender ascribed at birth is trans. “trans woman” is not a separate gender from “woman” (or “cis woman”), in much the same way that “woman” is not a separate gender from “girl” or “Black woman” is not a separate gender from “Asian woman”. Saying that Black women are not a separate, subordinate gender from women is not saying “woman = Black woman”.

yucky 5y ago
This line of thinking requires us to pretend there is no connection between sex and gender. But that raises bigger issues. For one, if gender has no relation to sex then what is it? Is tomboy a gender? Hipster? Geek? If not, why not? Also, if we are going to assert that there is no relation to sex, then why are the acronyms FtM and MtF used in the trans community? Male & female are biological sexes, not genders. So how does one transition between biological sexes? Not trying to be combative, just not clear on how these issues are handled in the community. I'm an outsider so I know that I may just not have the information. Looking for clarity.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > This line of thinking requires us to pretend there is no connection between sex and gender. No, it doesn't. In fact, the view of gender identity as innate is perfectly consistent with viewing it as one of many sex traits (whose distribution with regard to other sex traits is itself consistent with the bimodal-but-not-binary distribution of other sex traits.) > why are the acronyms FtM and MtF used in the trans community? mostly, AFAICT, they aren't; it's been years since I've seen them used except by people outside of the community and/or in marketing to the trans fetishist audience. I don't see trans people describing themselves as MtF, I see those who that label used by others would apply to describing themselves as “woman”, “trans woman”, or “(trans) woman who is AMAB (assigned male at birth)”. > Male & female are biological sexes, not genders. No, they are the names of both biological sexes [0] and the genders stereotypically ascribed based on sex traits. It is inconvenient that the names are identical, but they serve as both, because of historical sex essentialism in assignment of ascribed social roles. MtF and FtM refer to (imposed ascribed gender) to (gender identity and aspirational ascribed gender). [0] arguably, though arguably the mapping of multidimensional sex traits to binary “sexes” is itself really just another system of ascribed gender.
  - yucky 5y ago
    >It is in inconvenient that the names are identical I always assumed that was intentional. Also, are you sure male/female can be genders? If so, how is science supposed to refer to biological sex? You don't see this issue in animal classifications so I'm stumped. I'm still not sure what gender actually is then. What makes something a gender? Is there a reason geek, or goth or whatever can't be a gender?
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > I always assumed that was intentional. Well, yes, and I explained why. That doesn't make it less unfortunate. > Also, are you sure male/female can be genders? Yes. > If so, how is science supposed to refer to biological sex? With... exactly the language it does, for now. It is inconvenient for discussions where both sex and gender are involved that major categories of each have similar names, but most discussion of biological sex aren't impacted by that, and “sex” vs. “ascribed gender” vs. “gender identity” can be specified where necessary to disambiguate. It's hardly the only overloaded set of descriptors in the English language. Over time the language on one side or the other might evolve (I though femme and masc might evolve as gender terms, but they have instead become terms of presentation distinct from gender, which is another useful distinction.) > What makes something a gender? What makes it an ascribed gender is if society attributes it to be people and sees it as exclusive of other ascribed genders. What makes it a gender identity is if people view it as the aspect of their own identity in the same space as socially ascribed genders. > Is there a reason geek, or goth or whatever can't be a gender? There's no reason they can't be, but they usually aren't, either as ascribed genders or gender identities.
      - yucky 5y ago
        >There's no reason they can't be So if we're saying there is no reason goth or geek or whatever can't be considered gender, then we're just saying that gender is akin to personality type.
        dragonwriter 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

chrisdirkis 5y ago

If all dogs are animals, it wouldn't follow that all animals are dogs

yucky 5y ago
Except in this analogy it would be calling dogs human, not animals. Transwoman is not a subset of woman, it is a different thing entirely. Not meant in a pejorative way, just definitionally. That is unless we are just equating gender to personality type, since using this approach makes gender essentially undefinable. It means goth or geek or whatever can be called genders.
- zzo38computer 5y ago
  I can understand the point, but I do not agree. While that definition is possible, I think that it is unnecessary. "Woman" is the gender (she/her/etc, and commonly associated with many social traits, too), and "transwoman" means (as far as I understand it) a woman who is assigned as male at birth (whether or not she is male now, or even if that question has a clear answer, which in some cases it doesn't). (Another possibility, that some writers had used in the past, is using the pronouns as nouns. That might not work in all languages, though.) If being biologically male/female is what is relevant instead of gender (grammatically male/female) then you can say that, but that isn't really that simple anyways (and the sex is not quite as well-defined as many people say it is anyways) and so it is better to specify specifically what is needed. I once saw the mention of a medical form that instead of male/female it says "persons with [some organ or condition, I forget which one]". It isn't due to political correctness; there is an actual good reason, which is that presumably this is the specific aspect which is important for this medical procedure. However, "mother" and "father" are different. You could use these words in the biological meaning or in the adoptive meaning (even if they are your biological parents). (Maybe there should be other words, e.g. maybe "mom" and "dad" for the "adoptive" meanings instead.) If adoptive, then it would seem to be related to gender (and is unclear if the gender does not apply, then what?). If biological, then it is different, and has to do with function instead of with grammar/social. If you are pregnant with your child then you will be that child's mother, regardless of your sex and/or gender in your past, present, and future. Consider hypothetically, that somehow somehow can be changed and have both reproductive functions, that you might be one child's mother and another child's father at the same time! I do not understand how is "goth", "geek", etc as a gender, since gender is a grammatical construct. What will be the pronouns, prefixes/suffixes (for languages that use them), titles, etc (if any)? (Maybe there is one, but if so, I do not know what it is.) Doctors may use "Dr." in front of their name, but not pronouns for them, so even though there is that I wouldn't call that a gender, either. I had once mentioned the possibility of someone's gender being different in different languages; I don't know whether or not any people choose to do that, though.