5 ms·

Diversity has nothing to do with company culture being good or bad in most cases. Example: Let's say the company has 100 employees and 90 of them are white and

Diversity has nothing to do with company culture being good or bad in most cases. Example: Let's say the company has 100 employees and 90 of them are white and 10 of them are black. As a white engineer, it won't help you if they invite more black people to work there. It's much harder to know if 90% of them are assholes and diversity will never help with that.

bawolff 5y ago
In my experience it can be a bit of a canary. People who are assholes tend to be extra-assholey to out-groups (which often is minorities). If members of minority groups don't want to work somewhere it usually means that the people who work there are assholes.
- bequanna 5y ago
  Maybe you didn’t intend it this way, but your statement is pretty much the default liberal argument of the past several years: “everyone who does or says something I don’t like is racist.” As a result, calling someone “racist” has pretty much lost all meaning.
- peakaboo 5y ago
  I know this is the classic thinking about these things. But working in a company where they keep bringing in new employees that are rude (the "strong woman" template), it has given me something to think about. It's just not a given that reducing out-groups makes a company culture better. It can make it worse to include those groups sometimes. It's just hard to know before. But it's morally right to not exclude people so I'm of course supporting that. Just saying it may not be a sign of a good culture even though we may think it is.
  - bigbillheck 5y ago
    > keep bringing in new employees that are rude (the "strong woman" template), I've been working professionally for decades and I don't think I've seen this 'template' at all. And to be honest I'm wondering if this is a case of the 'same behavior is perceived as ruder in women than in men' effect.
    - wreath 5y ago
      I had the misfortune of interacting with what OP is calling "strong woman template" and they were as pleasant as any men with "tough guy" attitude. Rude, obnoxious, entitled, unkind, and always on edge. At least these are the common attributes I found common in people I thought of when seeing "strong woman template"
    - peakaboo 5y ago
      It's pretty much in every tv show if you watch TV. Strong woman = rude woman. Which I think is so stupid. It's not strong to be rude to people. It's just bad behavior and turns you into a bad person. It has gotten to the point that we now have "strong wimen" insulting men everywhere but if the tables are turned, men cannot be rude to wimen because that's completely unacceptable.
  - late2part 5y ago
    Whoah there tiger. I'm a white cisgendered able-bodied conservative male and I think you're probably an unhappy person.. You are likely sexist with prejudice about normative gender roles. Would you call a man doing the same thing a 'strong man?' Or are you referring to the southpark version of strong woman?
- samatman 5y ago
  You haven't had enough jobs to make a statement like that, no one has. Your effortless translation of "90% white" to "assholes" is a bit of a tell. For instance, you're white, and used to thinking this kind of trashing a group of people is ok because of your socially dominant position. Because these whites resemble you physically right? But of course you mean the bad whites; you're one of the good whites! It isn't ok, and let me remind you, you have no basis whatsoever to believe that teams which are 90% white are made up of assholes. It's something you made up and it's racially obnoxious behavior which you should stop immediately.
  - totalZero 5y ago
    I think the point was that diversity is often lacking in situations with bad people, because those bad people behave in ways that undermine heterogeneity...especially by mistreating the people who are different. Since racial heterogeneity is a more easily observable situation than, say, diversity of opinion, it's a healthy sign of a tolerant culture. That doesn't mean that a workplace lacking racial heterogeneity is bad. It simply lacks the canary. (If I'm interpreting GP properly.)
    - samatman 5y ago
      > diversity is often lacking in situations with bad people Do you mean, like, ethnic crime gangs? Those come in white flavors too. You, and GP, are just making stuff up that confirms your prejudices. You have no evidence of what you're saying whatsoever! All you're doing is stringing sentences together. What if I find one team of ten whites who are great to work with (say you're, I dunno Tongan?) and a team with every Benneton stripe who suck? The kind of thinking you two are promoting here just throws that information right out the window, in favor of, what? Bad heuristics? What should we call that? Stereotyping, right? This is people's livelihood you're messing with here.
      - nathanaldensr 5y ago
        I completely agree with you. Where is the proof?
- tomp 5y ago
  People forget that (1) women are not a minority, and (2) that tech is one of the kost diverse industries (full of Asians, Indians, immigrants, …)
  - danaris 5y ago
    That's why I prefer the term "marginalized groups".
    - anon7725 5y ago
      That’s why I prefer the term “moving the goalposts”
      - danaris 5y ago
        It's not moving the goalposts; it's accurately portraying the concept that was imperfectly conveyed in the past by "minorities".
    - bequanna 5y ago
      What explains this obsession with engaging in mental gymnastics just to call oneself “marginalized”? Is it to explain away shortcomings? Seek reparations? The feeling of being part of a group? Or simply attention seeking?
      - danaris 5y ago
        I'm not trying to call myself marginalized. I am a cisgender straight white man. Referring to marginalized groups is recognizing the very clear fact that certain groups of people have been historically, and still are, treated less well than those considered the "default" in-group due to aspects of themselves that are outside of their control. The purpose is to become mindful of the biases that has introduced to our society, both conscious and subconscious, and do our best to consciously take those into account to counteract them. ...So let me ask you: What explains this obsession with engaging in mental gymnastics just to avoid calling people "marginalized"? Is it to avoid having to change the way one thinks? Hold onto a perceived position of high status? The feeling of being part of a superior group? Or simply attention seeking?
aperson_hello 5y ago
And it's hard to say whether that's just the local market for engineers or if a large employer nearby is pulling minority engineers at a higher than average rate that skews the local market for the rest of the potential labor pool. In your example, I might question the lack of ANY other minorities in that company. In my local market, for example that 10% Black engineer number is way over-representing, but I'd expect ~30% minority for an average engineering organization.

bawolff 5y ago

In my experience it can be a bit of a canary. People who are assholes tend to be extra-assholey to out-groups (which often is minorities). If members of minority groups don't want to work somewhere it usually means that the people who work there are assholes.

bequanna 5y ago
Maybe you didn’t intend it this way, but your statement is pretty much the default liberal argument of the past several years: “everyone who does or says something I don’t like is racist.” As a result, calling someone “racist” has pretty much lost all meaning.
peakaboo 5y ago
I know this is the classic thinking about these things. But working in a company where they keep bringing in new employees that are rude (the "strong woman" template), it has given me something to think about. It's just not a given that reducing out-groups makes a company culture better. It can make it worse to include those groups sometimes. It's just hard to know before. But it's morally right to not exclude people so I'm of course supporting that. Just saying it may not be a sign of a good culture even though we may think it is.
- bigbillheck 5y ago
  > keep bringing in new employees that are rude (the "strong woman" template), I've been working professionally for decades and I don't think I've seen this 'template' at all. And to be honest I'm wondering if this is a case of the 'same behavior is perceived as ruder in women than in men' effect.
  - wreath 5y ago
    I had the misfortune of interacting with what OP is calling "strong woman template" and they were as pleasant as any men with "tough guy" attitude. Rude, obnoxious, entitled, unkind, and always on edge. At least these are the common attributes I found common in people I thought of when seeing "strong woman template"
  - peakaboo 5y ago
    It's pretty much in every tv show if you watch TV. Strong woman = rude woman. Which I think is so stupid. It's not strong to be rude to people. It's just bad behavior and turns you into a bad person. It has gotten to the point that we now have "strong wimen" insulting men everywhere but if the tables are turned, men cannot be rude to wimen because that's completely unacceptable.
- late2part 5y ago
  Whoah there tiger. I'm a white cisgendered able-bodied conservative male and I think you're probably an unhappy person.. You are likely sexist with prejudice about normative gender roles. Would you call a man doing the same thing a 'strong man?' Or are you referring to the southpark version of strong woman?
samatman 5y ago
You haven't had enough jobs to make a statement like that, no one has. Your effortless translation of "90% white" to "assholes" is a bit of a tell. For instance, you're white, and used to thinking this kind of trashing a group of people is ok because of your socially dominant position. Because these whites resemble you physically right? But of course you mean the bad whites; you're one of the good whites! It isn't ok, and let me remind you, you have no basis whatsoever to believe that teams which are 90% white are made up of assholes. It's something you made up and it's racially obnoxious behavior which you should stop immediately.
- totalZero 5y ago
  I think the point was that diversity is often lacking in situations with bad people, because those bad people behave in ways that undermine heterogeneity...especially by mistreating the people who are different. Since racial heterogeneity is a more easily observable situation than, say, diversity of opinion, it's a healthy sign of a tolerant culture. That doesn't mean that a workplace lacking racial heterogeneity is bad. It simply lacks the canary. (If I'm interpreting GP properly.)
  - samatman 5y ago
    > diversity is often lacking in situations with bad people Do you mean, like, ethnic crime gangs? Those come in white flavors too. You, and GP, are just making stuff up that confirms your prejudices. You have no evidence of what you're saying whatsoever! All you're doing is stringing sentences together. What if I find one team of ten whites who are great to work with (say you're, I dunno Tongan?) and a team with every Benneton stripe who suck? The kind of thinking you two are promoting here just throws that information right out the window, in favor of, what? Bad heuristics? What should we call that? Stereotyping, right? This is people's livelihood you're messing with here.
    - nathanaldensr 5y ago
      I completely agree with you. Where is the proof?
tomp 5y ago
People forget that (1) women are not a minority, and (2) that tech is one of the kost diverse industries (full of Asians, Indians, immigrants, …)
- danaris 5y ago
  That's why I prefer the term "marginalized groups".
  - anon7725 5y ago
    That’s why I prefer the term “moving the goalposts”
    - danaris 5y ago
      It's not moving the goalposts; it's accurately portraying the concept that was imperfectly conveyed in the past by "minorities".
  - bequanna 5y ago
    What explains this obsession with engaging in mental gymnastics just to call oneself “marginalized”? Is it to explain away shortcomings? Seek reparations? The feeling of being part of a group? Or simply attention seeking?
    - danaris 5y ago
      I'm not trying to call myself marginalized. I am a cisgender straight white man. Referring to marginalized groups is recognizing the very clear fact that certain groups of people have been historically, and still are, treated less well than those considered the "default" in-group due to aspects of themselves that are outside of their control. The purpose is to become mindful of the biases that has introduced to our society, both conscious and subconscious, and do our best to consciously take those into account to counteract them. ...So let me ask you: What explains this obsession with engaging in mental gymnastics just to avoid calling people "marginalized"? Is it to avoid having to change the way one thinks? Hold onto a perceived position of high status? The feeling of being part of a superior group? Or simply attention seeking?

aperson_hello 5y ago

And it's hard to say whether that's just the local market for engineers or if a large employer nearby is pulling minority engineers at a higher than average rate that skews the local market for the rest of the potential labor pool. In your example, I might question the lack of ANY other minorities in that company. In my local market, for example that 10% Black engineer number is way over-representing, but I'd expect ~30% minority for an average engineering organization.