4 ms·

I think of gender as a subjective feeling of identity. It correlates with sex most of the time: most men feel like they are men, and most women feel like they a

by antris 5y ago

I think of gender as a subjective feeling of identity. It correlates with sex most of the time: most men feel like they are men, and most women feel like they are women. That feeling is a cis identity. But for some people their subjective feeling of identity is just as obviously trans as for most people their cis identity is obvious. If you are cis, then you know what gender identity feels like. For trans people, it's just a different identity from their assigned gender at birth.

teakettle42 5y ago
That's a meaningless tautology — a recursive definition. > If you are cis, then you know what gender identity feels like. I think that, near universally, we do not. I don't feel my gender; there is no frame of reference against which I could possibly correlate my subjective and entirely internal mental experience against some normative model of what it "feels" like to either be male or female, much less your tautological definition of "man" or "woman".
- bjowen 5y ago
  This is a weird way of talking about feeling. Do you correlate your sensations of happiness or impatience or satisfaction against normative models using objective indicia, or do you just, you know, feel them? When someone tells you that they are feeling one of these things, do you tell them that there is no objective way of understanding the words that they are saying, or do you refer to your own experience where you reached for similar words to understand them? If you live in a society, you are surrounded by archetypes and roles and norms of gender - or of the performance of gender - which might be a helpful way to think about this post. Things like what clothing and grooming is appropriate are easy examples - and depending on where you are in the world, those standards may be radically different - in some cultures men are expected to adorn themselves to be attractive to partners, in some it’s women. But it’s also what emotions it’s appropriate to display, what kind of authority is afforded to a person, what physical strength and which ailments are reasonable, what kinds of body hair is attractive. We have words that describe a favourable performance of those gender roles (womanly, manly) and unfavourable words (effeminate, mannish). They are enforced, or at least patrolled, in all kinds of ways. Easy example is the kind of differential permissiveness around alcoholism. Why is that? If we have a social or a moral standard, why is it gendered? You have without a doubt experienced this in your life - and if you’re lucky it’s been internal and not at the hands of the local bully. If you’ve ever checked or modified your demeanour or your outfit or your tone because you are aware that it is too girly or too butch or too macho or too slutty, then that is the sensation of being trained back towards the model.
  - teakettle42 5y ago
    > Do you correlate your sensations of happiness or impatience or satisfaction against normative models using objective indicia Of course we do. It’s how we establish shared meaning about what it means to feel any of those things. The rest of your post describes gender roles; as in, social standards and stereotypes of behaviors attached to sex. We don’t use the words “woman” and “man” to denote roles or a social subculture, and we’ve never segregated bathrooms, or established segregated sports programs, on the basis of gender roles. How I feel internally, even if you could correlate it to some objective definition of “feeling female” — which you cannot — does not change that I am a man; an adult human male.
ImprobableTruth 5y ago
But that's a definition that hinges on sex, so it's not at all independent. If you were to remove the correlation to sex, 'subjective feeling of identity' is essentially just subculture, so hipster, goth and skater would also be 'genders'.
- antris 5y ago
  Sorry I thought you were genuinely curious, and not just baiting for a debate. I'm not interested. It's not that complicated a concept. Even kids can understand it quite well and there's plenty of information available when you decide that you want to actually learn instead of trying to debate your way into confirming your own opinions.
  - teakettle42 5y ago
    If you have a cogent argument, make it; someone genuinely curious is still going to need more than "because I say so" to work with. > It's not that complicated a concept. Even kids can understand it quite well Children will also readily believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny if their parents tell them that they exist. That's not an argument.
    - antris 5y ago
      Like I said, I'm not here to argue or debate. Genuinely curious people can find ample information on Wikipedia.
      - teakettle42 5y ago
        If one applies any intellectual rigor to the question at all, the ample information to which you refer makes it clear why you refuse to define "gender", "man", or "woman"; you cannot. Your assertions are prima facie undecidable, and it's not merely that you're unwilling to defend them — you cannot defend them.
  - ImprobableTruth 5y ago
bjowen 5y ago
There are of course also people whose identity is non-binary, whose experience may be more difficult for cis people to understand, but are a better example of a gender identity that is not easily relatable to sex characteristics. I found learning about fa’afafine was helpful to show where gender identities from my (Anglo) background did not adequately describe a material situation that is uncontroversial in its own cuktire.
- teakettle42 5y ago
  What you're describing just sounds like any other subculture. Can you define what a gender is not? As in, why are "goth" or "emo" not a gender, by your definition of gender?
- ImprobableTruth 5y ago
  At least as far as I know, non-binary identities are still anchored to the male-female dimension (which correlates to sex), but in a, well, non-binary way (i.e. a mix or complete rejection). From quickly looking them up the fa’afafine seem to line up with that.
throwawaysea 5y ago
What makes the “subjective feeling of identity” different from just having a different personality? Or what makes it different from a subculture like the ones of the past - punk, goth, emo, and so on. I think of gender as being strongly related to sex (like a trait of belonging to a certain sex), although I recognize there is an ongoing debate around how to define this word (gender). And I view personality as more personal, variable, and subjective. Is it that personality implies individuality whereas the subjective feeling of identity for trans people comes with group belonging?

by antris 5y ago

teakettle42 5y ago

That's a meaningless tautology — a recursive definition. > If you are cis, then you know what gender identity feels like. I think that, near universally, we do not. I don't feel my gender; there is no frame of reference against which I could possibly correlate my subjective and entirely internal mental experience against some normative model of what it "feels" like to either be male or female, much less your tautological definition of "man" or "woman".

bjowen 5y ago
This is a weird way of talking about feeling. Do you correlate your sensations of happiness or impatience or satisfaction against normative models using objective indicia, or do you just, you know, feel them? When someone tells you that they are feeling one of these things, do you tell them that there is no objective way of understanding the words that they are saying, or do you refer to your own experience where you reached for similar words to understand them? If you live in a society, you are surrounded by archetypes and roles and norms of gender - or of the performance of gender - which might be a helpful way to think about this post. Things like what clothing and grooming is appropriate are easy examples - and depending on where you are in the world, those standards may be radically different - in some cultures men are expected to adorn themselves to be attractive to partners, in some it’s women. But it’s also what emotions it’s appropriate to display, what kind of authority is afforded to a person, what physical strength and which ailments are reasonable, what kinds of body hair is attractive. We have words that describe a favourable performance of those gender roles (womanly, manly) and unfavourable words (effeminate, mannish). They are enforced, or at least patrolled, in all kinds of ways. Easy example is the kind of differential permissiveness around alcoholism. Why is that? If we have a social or a moral standard, why is it gendered? You have without a doubt experienced this in your life - and if you’re lucky it’s been internal and not at the hands of the local bully. If you’ve ever checked or modified your demeanour or your outfit or your tone because you are aware that it is too girly or too butch or too macho or too slutty, then that is the sensation of being trained back towards the model.
- teakettle42 5y ago
  > Do you correlate your sensations of happiness or impatience or satisfaction against normative models using objective indicia Of course we do. It’s how we establish shared meaning about what it means to feel any of those things. The rest of your post describes gender roles; as in, social standards and stereotypes of behaviors attached to sex. We don’t use the words “woman” and “man” to denote roles or a social subculture, and we’ve never segregated bathrooms, or established segregated sports programs, on the basis of gender roles. How I feel internally, even if you could correlate it to some objective definition of “feeling female” — which you cannot — does not change that I am a man; an adult human male.

ImprobableTruth 5y ago

But that's a definition that hinges on sex, so it's not at all independent. If you were to remove the correlation to sex, 'subjective feeling of identity' is essentially just subculture, so hipster, goth and skater would also be 'genders'.

antris 5y ago
Sorry I thought you were genuinely curious, and not just baiting for a debate. I'm not interested. It's not that complicated a concept. Even kids can understand it quite well and there's plenty of information available when you decide that you want to actually learn instead of trying to debate your way into confirming your own opinions.
- teakettle42 5y ago
  If you have a cogent argument, make it; someone genuinely curious is still going to need more than "because I say so" to work with. > It's not that complicated a concept. Even kids can understand it quite well Children will also readily believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny if their parents tell them that they exist. That's not an argument.
  - antris 5y ago
    Like I said, I'm not here to argue or debate. Genuinely curious people can find ample information on Wikipedia.
    - teakettle42 5y ago
      If one applies any intellectual rigor to the question at all, the ample information to which you refer makes it clear why you refuse to define "gender", "man", or "woman"; you cannot. Your assertions are prima facie undecidable, and it's not merely that you're unwilling to defend them — you cannot defend them.
- ImprobableTruth 5y ago

bjowen 5y ago

There are of course also people whose identity is non-binary, whose experience may be more difficult for cis people to understand, but are a better example of a gender identity that is not easily relatable to sex characteristics. I found learning about fa’afafine was helpful to show where gender identities from my (Anglo) background did not adequately describe a material situation that is uncontroversial in its own cuktire.

teakettle42 5y ago
What you're describing just sounds like any other subculture. Can you define what a gender is not? As in, why are "goth" or "emo" not a gender, by your definition of gender?
ImprobableTruth 5y ago
At least as far as I know, non-binary identities are still anchored to the male-female dimension (which correlates to sex), but in a, well, non-binary way (i.e. a mix or complete rejection). From quickly looking them up the fa’afafine seem to line up with that.

throwawaysea 5y ago

What makes the “subjective feeling of identity” different from just having a different personality? Or what makes it different from a subculture like the ones of the past - punk, goth, emo, and so on. I think of gender as being strongly related to sex (like a trait of belonging to a certain sex), although I recognize there is an ongoing debate around how to define this word (gender). And I view personality as more personal, variable, and subjective. Is it that personality implies individuality whereas the subjective feeling of identity for trans people comes with group belonging?