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Honestly we’re already working towards that. Between excel and no-code tools a lot of the grunt work can now be handled by the people who need it. The majority

Honestly we’re already working towards that. Between excel and no-code tools a lot of the grunt work can now be handled by the people who need it. The majority of stuff out there will be commodity software implementing some simple business logic and software engineers don't want to do that stuff anyway which is why we’ve been writing ourselves out of those jobs for decades. I have a very nontechinal marketing friend who routinely dives into WP sites to diagnose dependency issues after upgrades because her work no longer thinks she _needs_ programmer support. Or connect a up web/email forms to CRM in going or outgoing and needs no assistance to create complex conditional filled marketing campaigns. And mostly they're right. She's bad at it. It takes at least 10x as long to fixes these issues, but they occur quarterly or less. And if she can not fix it then they hire a consultant/contractor to fix it.

zozbot234 5y ago
Excel is a disaster. It will randomly corrupt input that happens to fit certain patterns by parsing it into "dates" or "numbers", unless you go to the trouble of explicitly setting the right "cell properties" via the incredibly clunky UI. It hides the code that's input in cells, lets it randomly mix with input data and does not support any kind of source control for it. It's not even fit for purpose as a prototyping tool, you're literally better off writing some code in FORTRAN IV and key-punching it into a fresh deck of punched cards. At least you're going to have proper code/data separation.
- solarmist 5y ago
  Yup, but you can make it do the job and that's enough for the majority.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    It's only "enough" to them because they don't grok the failure modes. Which is basically the story of almost all "no-code" or "low-code" tools. You can do "low-code" and even "no-code" right, but it basically has to be a DSL that's cleanly defined in terms of some other programming language with sensible semantics. That way when the DSL fails to do what you expect it to (as it invariably will at some point), you at least get to pick up the pieces and carry on. But that's not how Excel is built, or most similar tools.
    - solarmist 5y ago
      Preaching to the choir, but mostly they don't care about any of that.
  - monocasa 5y ago
    I mean, we're renaming genes because of how much excel has been corrupting data. https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/6/21355674/human-genes-rename-microsoft-excel-misreading-dates https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/6/21355674/human-genes-renam... I agree that there's tons of value in the paradigm (more than a lot of people on hn would admit), but excel particularly has way more sharp edges than people know.
  - agent86 5y ago
    It's not just that it can do the job, but that the majority has access to Excel. There may be better tools/platforms to solve a given problem, but in most cases the rank and file don't have access to them or permissions to do what they want. "If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail."

zozbot234 5y ago

Excel is a disaster. It will randomly corrupt input that happens to fit certain patterns by parsing it into "dates" or "numbers", unless you go to the trouble of explicitly setting the right "cell properties" via the incredibly clunky UI. It hides the code that's input in cells, lets it randomly mix with input data and does not support any kind of source control for it. It's not even fit for purpose as a prototyping tool, you're literally better off writing some code in FORTRAN IV and key-punching it into a fresh deck of punched cards. At least you're going to have proper code/data separation.

solarmist 5y ago
Yup, but you can make it do the job and that's enough for the majority.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  It's only "enough" to them because they don't grok the failure modes. Which is basically the story of almost all "no-code" or "low-code" tools. You can do "low-code" and even "no-code" right, but it basically has to be a DSL that's cleanly defined in terms of some other programming language with sensible semantics. That way when the DSL fails to do what you expect it to (as it invariably will at some point), you at least get to pick up the pieces and carry on. But that's not how Excel is built, or most similar tools.
  - solarmist 5y ago
    Preaching to the choir, but mostly they don't care about any of that.
- monocasa 5y ago
  I mean, we're renaming genes because of how much excel has been corrupting data. https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/6/21355674/human-genes-rename-microsoft-excel-misreading-dates https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/6/21355674/human-genes-renam... I agree that there's tons of value in the paradigm (more than a lot of people on hn would admit), but excel particularly has way more sharp edges than people know.
- agent86 5y ago
  It's not just that it can do the job, but that the majority has access to Excel. There may be better tools/platforms to solve a given problem, but in most cases the rank and file don't have access to them or permissions to do what they want. "If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail."