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Maybe. Or maybe I should pay $1K, or $100K. My point is that there's a market rate for new users, and that's what I should be paying. (Even if Apple is the onl

Maybe. Or maybe I should pay $1K, or $100K. My point is that there's a market rate for new users, and that's what I should be paying. (Even if Apple is the only purveyor of Search Ads, I can acquire new users on Google or Facebook, or by any other means of advertising.)

2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
Charge nothing. They make money when they sell phones.
- cweagans 5y ago
  When they sell you a phone, you are paying for the hardware and the software that runs on it. Apple is providing a service with the App Store and related services. Whether or not you _like_ that service or how they price it is another matter, but they _are_ providing a service. It is not unreasonable for them to charge for it.
  - realusername 5y ago
    What if I don't want their services? I'm fine providing my app from my website, it's not like there's any value out of being listed in the appstore anyways.
    - cweagans 5y ago
      > What if I don't want their services? I'm fine providing my app from my website You're free to not use the app store. You could sell an app bundle from your website if you wanted to. I doubt your users will be happy with that, though. Actually installing the thing is gonna suck. FWIW, I partially agree on this point: Apple should provide a reliable way of sideloading applications onto an iPhone without jailbreaking or anything. I rather like the way Android does it (just a toggle in the settings; off by default -- which, let's be honest, really is the right default for 99% of people). > it's not like there's any value out of being listed in the appstore anyways Nonsense. Even if you completely write off advertising because discoverability for new apps is terrible, having a system that's baked into the OS able roll out updates ASAP for existing users is an _incredible_ luxury. That _alone_ would be worth some substantial money. --- Are the fees too high for the service being offered? Yeah, probably. This is Apple we're talking about though. High prices are kind of their thing. Are there things that could be improved about the service? Absolutely. This has been written about at length in various places around the internet. Is any of this an _easy_ fix? No, it's really, really not. As technologists, it's easy for you and I to say 'just get out of my way and let me do what i want, apple'. We accept very little risk in doing that because generally speaking, we know what we're doing and what to look out for. The average non-technical consumer, though? The guardrails that Apple puts on the experience are a feature, not a bug. A completely hands-off approach (think Windows circa 2003) is a _terrible_ experience for the vast majority of people because the vast majority of people are almost entirely technically illiterate. A locked down ecosystem is a reasonable default.
      - realusername 5y ago
        > You're free to not use the app store. You could sell an app bundle from your website if you wanted to. I doubt your users will be happy with that, though. Actually installing the thing is gonna suck. You just can't? There's not a way to download an .ipa and run it on an iPhone. And on Android if the experience of doing that just sucks ... but that's the fault of the OS developers not mine I'd say... > Nonsense. Even if you completely write off advertising because discoverability for new apps is terrible, having a system that's baked into the OS able roll out updates ASAP for existing users is an _incredible_ luxury. That _alone_ would be worth some substantial money. It's true I do get "some" free install from the app store, but it's about the same as a 10$ ad though so I evaluate the value of the advertising of being listed in the appstore to something around 10$. In terms of updates, if they just let embedded an url in the package configuration from where the phone needs fetch the updates, that'd be enough. > The guardrails that Apple puts on the experience are a feature, not a bug. A completely hands-off approach (think Windows circa 2003) is a _terrible_ experience for the vast majority of people because the vast majority of people are almost entirely technically illiterate. A locked down ecosystem is a reasonable default. If we're talking about safety, the safest place platform today in terms of security and privacy is still the web, far ahead of the appstore. Since it's an open platform, I don't see the connection.
        cweagans 5y ago
        > You just can't? There's not a way to download an .ipa and run it on an iPhone. There are ways. > if they just let embedded an url in the package configuration from where the phone needs fetch the updates, that'd be enough. No, it’s not. In that model, every app can download something from anywhere on the internet at the discretion of the developer, modify itself, and then execute newly downloaded code. Having that process happen out of band from at least a semi-trusted location is much better. > If we're talking about safety, the safest place platform today in terms of security and privacy is still the web For gullible users (of which there are many), the web is incredibly dangerous. Yeah, stuff is sandboxed and such, but that doesn’t stop people from losing egregious amounts of money to scams. I can’t quantify this, but I would guess that the web is a substantially higher percentage of scams compared to the App Store. Anecdotally, I don’t know anyone who has lost more than a trivial amount of money to an App Store scam. I know multiple people who have each lost $50k+ just to romance scams.

2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago

Charge nothing. They make money when they sell phones.

cweagans 5y ago
When they sell you a phone, you are paying for the hardware and the software that runs on it. Apple is providing a service with the App Store and related services. Whether or not you _like_ that service or how they price it is another matter, but they _are_ providing a service. It is not unreasonable for them to charge for it.
- realusername 5y ago
  What if I don't want their services? I'm fine providing my app from my website, it's not like there's any value out of being listed in the appstore anyways.
  - cweagans 5y ago
    > What if I don't want their services? I'm fine providing my app from my website You're free to not use the app store. You could sell an app bundle from your website if you wanted to. I doubt your users will be happy with that, though. Actually installing the thing is gonna suck. FWIW, I partially agree on this point: Apple should provide a reliable way of sideloading applications onto an iPhone without jailbreaking or anything. I rather like the way Android does it (just a toggle in the settings; off by default -- which, let's be honest, really is the right default for 99% of people). > it's not like there's any value out of being listed in the appstore anyways Nonsense. Even if you completely write off advertising because discoverability for new apps is terrible, having a system that's baked into the OS able roll out updates ASAP for existing users is an _incredible_ luxury. That _alone_ would be worth some substantial money. --- Are the fees too high for the service being offered? Yeah, probably. This is Apple we're talking about though. High prices are kind of their thing. Are there things that could be improved about the service? Absolutely. This has been written about at length in various places around the internet. Is any of this an _easy_ fix? No, it's really, really not. As technologists, it's easy for you and I to say 'just get out of my way and let me do what i want, apple'. We accept very little risk in doing that because generally speaking, we know what we're doing and what to look out for. The average non-technical consumer, though? The guardrails that Apple puts on the experience are a feature, not a bug. A completely hands-off approach (think Windows circa 2003) is a _terrible_ experience for the vast majority of people because the vast majority of people are almost entirely technically illiterate. A locked down ecosystem is a reasonable default.
    - realusername 5y ago
      > You're free to not use the app store. You could sell an app bundle from your website if you wanted to. I doubt your users will be happy with that, though. Actually installing the thing is gonna suck. You just can't? There's not a way to download an .ipa and run it on an iPhone. And on Android if the experience of doing that just sucks ... but that's the fault of the OS developers not mine I'd say... > Nonsense. Even if you completely write off advertising because discoverability for new apps is terrible, having a system that's baked into the OS able roll out updates ASAP for existing users is an _incredible_ luxury. That _alone_ would be worth some substantial money. It's true I do get "some" free install from the app store, but it's about the same as a 10$ ad though so I evaluate the value of the advertising of being listed in the appstore to something around 10$. In terms of updates, if they just let embedded an url in the package configuration from where the phone needs fetch the updates, that'd be enough. > The guardrails that Apple puts on the experience are a feature, not a bug. A completely hands-off approach (think Windows circa 2003) is a _terrible_ experience for the vast majority of people because the vast majority of people are almost entirely technically illiterate. A locked down ecosystem is a reasonable default. If we're talking about safety, the safest place platform today in terms of security and privacy is still the web, far ahead of the appstore. Since it's an open platform, I don't see the connection.
      - cweagans 5y ago
        > You just can't? There's not a way to download an .ipa and run it on an iPhone. There are ways. > if they just let embedded an url in the package configuration from where the phone needs fetch the updates, that'd be enough. No, it’s not. In that model, every app can download something from anywhere on the internet at the discretion of the developer, modify itself, and then execute newly downloaded code. Having that process happen out of band from at least a semi-trusted location is much better. > If we're talking about safety, the safest place platform today in terms of security and privacy is still the web For gullible users (of which there are many), the web is incredibly dangerous. Yeah, stuff is sandboxed and such, but that doesn’t stop people from losing egregious amounts of money to scams. I can’t quantify this, but I would guess that the web is a substantially higher percentage of scams compared to the App Store. Anecdotally, I don’t know anyone who has lost more than a trivial amount of money to an App Store scam. I know multiple people who have each lost $50k+ just to romance scams.