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>I wouldn’t be surprised if many animals are smarter on average than humans are on average. This doesn't really make any sense. I realize it's fun to have oppo

>I wouldn’t be surprised if many animals are smarter on average than humans are on average. This doesn't really make any sense. I realize it's fun to have opposite opinions of the majority on the internet but animals don't make complex tools, they don't have the ability for substantial transfer of information from generation to generation, and the complexity of communication in even the cleverest animals is very low compared to human language. I'd be really surprised to learn there was a single lifeform on earth with anything approaching human level intelligence.

bmitc 5y ago
Dolphins, which obviously include orcas, actually have more complex brains than ours, including the folds, which makes the surface area of the brain larger for its overall volume. It's not just about "opposite opinions of ... the internet". It's an ongoing scientific discussion, and the trend is usually "they're smarter than we thought". > they don't have the ability for substantial transfer of information from generation to generation They have to do so vocally. Technology development doesn't necessarily correlate, positively or negatively, with intelligence. Orcas and whales at large are highly limited by their appendages and environments in terms of technology development. > complexity of communication in even the cleverest animals is very low compared to human language Are you able to understand orca what orcas "say"? That seems to be a very strong statement when we know quite little about what they're able to communicate. Furthermore, whales having echolocation have built-in transmitters and receivers that are in addition to their normal vocalizations and hearing. It seems weird to make claims about how they experience the world given no one really knows. But we can surmise the possibility based upon scientific facts. > I'd be really surprised to learn there was a single lifeform on earth with anything approaching human level intelligence. If you put a human brain in an orca body (accepting the hypothetical), what could that brain do in that body and environment? Very little with regards to technology development (writing, tool use, etc.).
- beerandt 5y ago
  You don't see the inconsistency between: >Dolphins, which obviously include orcas, actually have more complex brains than ours And this: >>complexity of communication in even the cleverest animals is very low compared to human language >Are you able to understand orca what orcas "say"? That seems to be a very strong statement when we know quite little about what they're able to communicate. Are you able to understand what orcas "think"?
  - bmitc 5y ago
    The physical structure of their brains is more complex. I thought that was clear from the follow-on context regarding their brains. Is it not a line of science to understand how brain folding contributes to intelligence? Further, orcas certainly show high levels of emotional and cooperative intelligence compared to humans. Sons stay together with their mothers throughout their lives in the same pods, and as far as I understand, there's relatively little, if any inter-pod fighting. They also readily share food throughout the pod. They are deeply connected to each other in a way that I think we have a hard time understanding. This is a good book to take a look at: https://www.amazon.com/Deep-Thinkers-Inside-Dolphins-Porpoises/dp/022638747X/ https://www.amazon.com/Deep-Thinkers-Inside-Dolphins-Porpois... > Are you able to understand what orcas "think"? No I do not, but one can surmise from the scientific study of them and behavioral observations. My point about them making a strong statement is that it isn't backed up by anything except a human-centric bias of intelligence. And the person I replied to make an incredibly strong claim: > complexity of communication in even the cleverest animals is very low compared to human language That needs backing up. In the event that there is no backup, which I don't believe there is, then we have to leave possibility open, possibility that's informed by scientific and behavioral studies.
    - beerandt 5y ago
      Assuming dolphin brains are complex bc "folds" isn't a stretch, but assuming animal communication isn't as complex as human language is?
- wiseowise 5y ago
  They’re smarter than we though is not the same they’re smarter than us on average.
imoverclocked 5y ago
> they don't have the ability for substantial transfer of information from generation to generation Right, we have writing. They do pass information on in the form of habits, hunting or otherwise. It took humans a long time (many many generations) to collectively have the concept of the number 0. The things we have figured out and spend years passing on in school are hard-won and written down. The few humans who do figure out fundamentally new concepts often interact through written collections.

bmitc 5y ago

Dolphins, which obviously include orcas, actually have more complex brains than ours, including the folds, which makes the surface area of the brain larger for its overall volume. It's not just about "opposite opinions of ... the internet". It's an ongoing scientific discussion, and the trend is usually "they're smarter than we thought". > they don't have the ability for substantial transfer of information from generation to generation They have to do so vocally. Technology development doesn't necessarily correlate, positively or negatively, with intelligence. Orcas and whales at large are highly limited by their appendages and environments in terms of technology development. > complexity of communication in even the cleverest animals is very low compared to human language Are you able to understand orca what orcas "say"? That seems to be a very strong statement when we know quite little about what they're able to communicate. Furthermore, whales having echolocation have built-in transmitters and receivers that are in addition to their normal vocalizations and hearing. It seems weird to make claims about how they experience the world given no one really knows. But we can surmise the possibility based upon scientific facts. > I'd be really surprised to learn there was a single lifeform on earth with anything approaching human level intelligence. If you put a human brain in an orca body (accepting the hypothetical), what could that brain do in that body and environment? Very little with regards to technology development (writing, tool use, etc.).

beerandt 5y ago
You don't see the inconsistency between: >Dolphins, which obviously include orcas, actually have more complex brains than ours And this: >>complexity of communication in even the cleverest animals is very low compared to human language >Are you able to understand orca what orcas "say"? That seems to be a very strong statement when we know quite little about what they're able to communicate. Are you able to understand what orcas "think"?
- bmitc 5y ago
  The physical structure of their brains is more complex. I thought that was clear from the follow-on context regarding their brains. Is it not a line of science to understand how brain folding contributes to intelligence? Further, orcas certainly show high levels of emotional and cooperative intelligence compared to humans. Sons stay together with their mothers throughout their lives in the same pods, and as far as I understand, there's relatively little, if any inter-pod fighting. They also readily share food throughout the pod. They are deeply connected to each other in a way that I think we have a hard time understanding. This is a good book to take a look at: https://www.amazon.com/Deep-Thinkers-Inside-Dolphins-Porpoises/dp/022638747X/ https://www.amazon.com/Deep-Thinkers-Inside-Dolphins-Porpois... > Are you able to understand what orcas "think"? No I do not, but one can surmise from the scientific study of them and behavioral observations. My point about them making a strong statement is that it isn't backed up by anything except a human-centric bias of intelligence. And the person I replied to make an incredibly strong claim: > complexity of communication in even the cleverest animals is very low compared to human language That needs backing up. In the event that there is no backup, which I don't believe there is, then we have to leave possibility open, possibility that's informed by scientific and behavioral studies.
  - beerandt 5y ago
    Assuming dolphin brains are complex bc "folds" isn't a stretch, but assuming animal communication isn't as complex as human language is?
wiseowise 5y ago
They’re smarter than we though is not the same they’re smarter than us on average.

imoverclocked 5y ago

> they don't have the ability for substantial transfer of information from generation to generation Right, we have writing. They do pass information on in the form of habits, hunting or otherwise. It took humans a long time (many many generations) to collectively have the concept of the number 0. The things we have figured out and spend years passing on in school are hard-won and written down. The few humans who do figure out fundamentally new concepts often interact through written collections.