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Fair point, made me think for a second. Sadly these locked down devices which infringe on our property rights have even started changing language =( when it com

by anfilt 5y ago

Fair point, made me think for a second. Sadly these locked down devices which infringe on our property rights have even started changing language =( when it comes to software.

oneplane 5y ago
But it's not some americanised rights issue, you can still just install whatever you want outside of the App Store. It's not like I'm installing Sublime Text or stuff from JetBrains from the store or something like that. Perhaps you're just scoping it to the mobile tables and phones, those are indeed locked down but I don't mind it, they are appliances to me and I want the manufacturer to be 100% responsible for it, 100% of the time.
- sneak 5y ago
  Some macOS APIs that apps use (such as Wireguard) will only work if they are distributed via the App Store and notarized by Apple. You cannot install a working Wireguard on macOS outside of the App Store.
  - oneplane 5y ago
    You can, but it will work in userspace and be a bit slower was well as use utun instead of NetworkExtensions.
- anfilt 5y ago
  Yes my scope is mainly tablets and phones, but still applies to other devices with locked down boot-ROMs or boot loaders where the device has no means for the owner to disable it or load their own signing keys. The right I am talking about is primarily the right of exclusion and its not just an American concept plenty of other countries have similar concepts or even the same name, but of course the exact details will vary from one legal system to an other. Effectively apple retains the right of exclusion via extralegal means by using cryptography. Apple can unilaterally decide to exclude software from devices they don't own by not signing it. If you wrote some software yourself for instance you would also still have to ask apple to sign it which they only will do under certain conditions. Essentially if you have to keep having to ask a 3rd party to do something with something you “own” you don’t fully own it. Why it’s extralegal is that normally a seller would require a buyer to agree to a contract to retain some rights over real or tangible property. Instead apple is using cryptography to effectively retain some property rights despite the buyer never signing a contract agree-ing to this arrangement.
  - threeseed 5y ago
    > Instead apple is using cryptography to effectively retain some property rights despite the buyer never signing a contract agree-ing to this arrangement. You agree to the terms when you first use the device. And if you don’t agree to the terms you can get a refund and buy another phone.
    - anfilt 5y ago
      You can buy the device without agreeing to any terms of service. Now you may not be able to use iOS without accepting the TOS durning setup. However, the fact is the hardware is still a separate entity from OS and is still locked down. The problem still persists that apple is selling hardware that you don’t have full control over. What if I wanted to run linux instead or even bare metal code that I wrote myself? Apple does not permit this nor will sign such software so that boot-rom will load it to RAM. Just because your average user may not do those things does not mean their rights are not being effectively diminished compared to other tangible property they buy.
      - threeseed 5y ago
        And you are free to do whatever you like with the hardware including installing any software you choose. Apple is under no obligation however to compromise the security of their device in order to help you.
        smoldesu 5y ago
        Correction, they're under no obligation to provide support if I decide to compromise the security of my device. That decision should be left to the end-user though, and Apple's repeated action against people loading arbitrary code onto the iPhone is user-hostile, regardless of how you frame it. Offering third-party distribution channels is no less harmful than forcing users to access your content through a web browser, and the longer they deny it, the more frugal they'll appear when they face their final judgement. As of today, 35 states are stepping forward to call them on this behavior. Who knows what that figure will look like in a year's time.
userbinator 5y ago
The other notable change in terminology is from "computers" to "devices". They don't want you to think of them as (general-purpose) computers.
- wilg 5y ago
  Well probably because it's confusing when it's a phone or tablet. (I know they are all computers.)
- anfilt 5y ago
  Well the term computing device predates all this silliness that has come up surrounding portable computers. Device is a more generic term though. Like calling a separate piece of hardware that also likely turning complete in multiple ways in the context of drivers a device is perfectly normal. Also just take the name AMD it stands for advance micro devices.
- threeseed 5y ago
  They aren’t general purpose computers any more than a Tesla, PS5 or my fridge is.
  - nvrspyx 5y ago
    A Tesla drives, a PS5 plays games, and a fridge keeps food cold. What's the one and only thing that a smart phone or tablet is meant to do? If it's make phone calls, most people don't anymore and doesn't apply to tablets. This is an absurd argument.
  - admax88qqq 5y ago
    There is literally an app store full of software to accomplish all sorts of tasks. The marketing slogan for a while was "there's an app for that". How much more general does it need to be to meet your definition of a "general purpose" computer?
  - realusername 5y ago
    If your fridge or your PS5 was running your banking sofware & your government taxes, maybe they could be considered general purpose computers as well.

by anfilt 5y ago

Fair point, made me think for a second. Sadly these locked down devices which infringe on our property rights have even started changing language =( when it comes to software.

oneplane 5y ago

But it's not some americanised rights issue, you can still just install whatever you want outside of the App Store. It's not like I'm installing Sublime Text or stuff from JetBrains from the store or something like that. Perhaps you're just scoping it to the mobile tables and phones, those are indeed locked down but I don't mind it, they are appliances to me and I want the manufacturer to be 100% responsible for it, 100% of the time.

sneak 5y ago
Some macOS APIs that apps use (such as Wireguard) will only work if they are distributed via the App Store and notarized by Apple. You cannot install a working Wireguard on macOS outside of the App Store.
- oneplane 5y ago
  You can, but it will work in userspace and be a bit slower was well as use utun instead of NetworkExtensions.
anfilt 5y ago
Yes my scope is mainly tablets and phones, but still applies to other devices with locked down boot-ROMs or boot loaders where the device has no means for the owner to disable it or load their own signing keys. The right I am talking about is primarily the right of exclusion and its not just an American concept plenty of other countries have similar concepts or even the same name, but of course the exact details will vary from one legal system to an other. Effectively apple retains the right of exclusion via extralegal means by using cryptography. Apple can unilaterally decide to exclude software from devices they don't own by not signing it. If you wrote some software yourself for instance you would also still have to ask apple to sign it which they only will do under certain conditions. Essentially if you have to keep having to ask a 3rd party to do something with something you “own” you don’t fully own it. Why it’s extralegal is that normally a seller would require a buyer to agree to a contract to retain some rights over real or tangible property. Instead apple is using cryptography to effectively retain some property rights despite the buyer never signing a contract agree-ing to this arrangement.
- threeseed 5y ago
  > Instead apple is using cryptography to effectively retain some property rights despite the buyer never signing a contract agree-ing to this arrangement. You agree to the terms when you first use the device. And if you don’t agree to the terms you can get a refund and buy another phone.
  - anfilt 5y ago
    You can buy the device without agreeing to any terms of service. Now you may not be able to use iOS without accepting the TOS durning setup. However, the fact is the hardware is still a separate entity from OS and is still locked down. The problem still persists that apple is selling hardware that you don’t have full control over. What if I wanted to run linux instead or even bare metal code that I wrote myself? Apple does not permit this nor will sign such software so that boot-rom will load it to RAM. Just because your average user may not do those things does not mean their rights are not being effectively diminished compared to other tangible property they buy.
    - threeseed 5y ago
      And you are free to do whatever you like with the hardware including installing any software you choose. Apple is under no obligation however to compromise the security of their device in order to help you.
      - smoldesu 5y ago
        Correction, they're under no obligation to provide support if I decide to compromise the security of my device. That decision should be left to the end-user though, and Apple's repeated action against people loading arbitrary code onto the iPhone is user-hostile, regardless of how you frame it. Offering third-party distribution channels is no less harmful than forcing users to access your content through a web browser, and the longer they deny it, the more frugal they'll appear when they face their final judgement. As of today, 35 states are stepping forward to call them on this behavior. Who knows what that figure will look like in a year's time.

userbinator 5y ago

The other notable change in terminology is from "computers" to "devices". They don't want you to think of them as (general-purpose) computers.

wilg 5y ago
Well probably because it's confusing when it's a phone or tablet. (I know they are all computers.)
anfilt 5y ago
Well the term computing device predates all this silliness that has come up surrounding portable computers. Device is a more generic term though. Like calling a separate piece of hardware that also likely turning complete in multiple ways in the context of drivers a device is perfectly normal. Also just take the name AMD it stands for advance micro devices.
threeseed 5y ago
They aren’t general purpose computers any more than a Tesla, PS5 or my fridge is.
- nvrspyx 5y ago
  A Tesla drives, a PS5 plays games, and a fridge keeps food cold. What's the one and only thing that a smart phone or tablet is meant to do? If it's make phone calls, most people don't anymore and doesn't apply to tablets. This is an absurd argument.
- admax88qqq 5y ago
  There is literally an app store full of software to accomplish all sorts of tasks. The marketing slogan for a while was "there's an app for that". How much more general does it need to be to meet your definition of a "general purpose" computer?
- realusername 5y ago
  If your fridge or your PS5 was running your banking sofware & your government taxes, maybe they could be considered general purpose computers as well.