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Other than arguably the level of communication, every single thing you describe about orcas hunting applies to wolves hunting buffalo. ETA: There's also the un

Other than arguably the level of communication, every single thing you describe about orcas hunting applies to wolves hunting buffalo. ETA: There's also the under appreciated communication aspect of canines (and orcas) ability to take and obey direction from others. There's lots of research on how despite learning from mimicry, non-human primate intelligence might be relatively capped by this limitation.

michaelwilson 5y ago
Agree. Wolves use a highly coordinated attack, where lead dogs harry the prey and are replaced as they tire. Also, you need more than a simple strategy to take down an animal that can hurt you by kicking you with sharp hooves, poking you with antlers, or calling on 300 of it's close friends to trample you and your little pack to death.
- bmitc 5y ago
  It's not anything close to what's been observed in orcas.
  - Maursault 5y ago
    The wolves vs. killer whales debate here is pretty intense. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8V97_DKfhw&t=0m44s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8V97_DKfhw&t=0m44s [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDJgv1iARPg&t=0m28s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDJgv1iARPg&t=0m28s
- beerandt 5y ago
  Just the process of separating an individual from the herd shows such a great deal of coordination, especially in the case of the herd circling multiple calves or calves with mothers. Watching ~6 wolves chase 6 candidate buffalo, then quickly joining forces as soon as one target makes a mistake is incredible to watch. Same as when they taunt individuals to draw them out and attack the flank. And while the verbal communication of orcas is impressive, the wolves use of howls when out of sight, and visual cues while in sight is no less impressive to me.
bmitc 5y ago
That is a big one, is it not? Do we call humans "wolves on two feet"? Communication and cooperation are things orcas exhibit over and over. Also, wolves, as far as I know, are purely instinctual and do not communicate or pass down learned knowledge. Orcas do. There are several documented instances of one or a few individuals in an orca pod discovering some novel way to eat something or discovering a new animal altogether to eat that is then taught within the pod. There's one specific hunting technique for mammal hunting orcas that has been observed that showcases this. When hunting mammals, who have excellent hearing and are intelligent themselves, orcas can sometimes reach a point where it's not working. So, the pod of orcas will resume chatting (vocalizing) and start to leave the area while they choose a single orca to stay silently behind. Once the other orcas leave, the mammals (usually seals) relax, giving the silent orca hiding a chance to capture. Once capture, the other orcas return to share the meal. Wolves don't do anything like that.
- beerandt 5y ago
  Wolves manage to cooperate fine, communicating with both howls and non-verbal cues. What's more impressive (be it humans playing sports or pack predators hunting): a team calling an audible play while on the attack, or the team that is so well knit that it can accomplish the same without yelling it out loud? >Wolves don't do anything like that. Wolves will both silently stalk and drive/funnel prey to a waiting ambush. And they do vocally call for others to rejoin them when out of sight. I'm not sure what better analog you might expect, given that wolves aren't pursuing above surface prey from underwater. But would you discredit orcas for not climbing out of the water and chasing seals on the ice?
- Retric 5y ago
  There is a lot of learned behavior in wolf hunting. Juvenile wolves go on hunts without direct participation to observe many times before participating. There is even specialization where faster members of a pack take on different roles. The real difference is large wolf pray doesn’t escape the way seals can onto land but are significantly more dangerous to the wolves. Such prey can both out run them in most cases or severely injury them in direct confrontations, so wolves need to use deep snow, river banks, or extreme exhaustion methods. It’s actually more complex hunting behavior than Orcas vs whales, though adapted to different environments. In terms of communication Alphas don’t seem to micromanage hunts the way Orcas do, but they will call them off etc. Which might relate to land being a more variable environment, you don’t run into random ditches in the open ocean.

michaelwilson 5y ago

Agree. Wolves use a highly coordinated attack, where lead dogs harry the prey and are replaced as they tire. Also, you need more than a simple strategy to take down an animal that can hurt you by kicking you with sharp hooves, poking you with antlers, or calling on 300 of it's close friends to trample you and your little pack to death.

bmitc 5y ago
It's not anything close to what's been observed in orcas.
- Maursault 5y ago
  The wolves vs. killer whales debate here is pretty intense. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8V97_DKfhw&t=0m44s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8V97_DKfhw&t=0m44s [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDJgv1iARPg&t=0m28s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDJgv1iARPg&t=0m28s
beerandt 5y ago
Just the process of separating an individual from the herd shows such a great deal of coordination, especially in the case of the herd circling multiple calves or calves with mothers. Watching ~6 wolves chase 6 candidate buffalo, then quickly joining forces as soon as one target makes a mistake is incredible to watch. Same as when they taunt individuals to draw them out and attack the flank. And while the verbal communication of orcas is impressive, the wolves use of howls when out of sight, and visual cues while in sight is no less impressive to me.

bmitc 5y ago

That is a big one, is it not? Do we call humans "wolves on two feet"? Communication and cooperation are things orcas exhibit over and over. Also, wolves, as far as I know, are purely instinctual and do not communicate or pass down learned knowledge. Orcas do. There are several documented instances of one or a few individuals in an orca pod discovering some novel way to eat something or discovering a new animal altogether to eat that is then taught within the pod. There's one specific hunting technique for mammal hunting orcas that has been observed that showcases this. When hunting mammals, who have excellent hearing and are intelligent themselves, orcas can sometimes reach a point where it's not working. So, the pod of orcas will resume chatting (vocalizing) and start to leave the area while they choose a single orca to stay silently behind. Once the other orcas leave, the mammals (usually seals) relax, giving the silent orca hiding a chance to capture. Once capture, the other orcas return to share the meal. Wolves don't do anything like that.

beerandt 5y ago
Wolves manage to cooperate fine, communicating with both howls and non-verbal cues. What's more impressive (be it humans playing sports or pack predators hunting): a team calling an audible play while on the attack, or the team that is so well knit that it can accomplish the same without yelling it out loud? >Wolves don't do anything like that. Wolves will both silently stalk and drive/funnel prey to a waiting ambush. And they do vocally call for others to rejoin them when out of sight. I'm not sure what better analog you might expect, given that wolves aren't pursuing above surface prey from underwater. But would you discredit orcas for not climbing out of the water and chasing seals on the ice?
Retric 5y ago
There is a lot of learned behavior in wolf hunting. Juvenile wolves go on hunts without direct participation to observe many times before participating. There is even specialization where faster members of a pack take on different roles. The real difference is large wolf pray doesn’t escape the way seals can onto land but are significantly more dangerous to the wolves. Such prey can both out run them in most cases or severely injury them in direct confrontations, so wolves need to use deep snow, river banks, or extreme exhaustion methods. It’s actually more complex hunting behavior than Orcas vs whales, though adapted to different environments. In terms of communication Alphas don’t seem to micromanage hunts the way Orcas do, but they will call them off etc. Which might relate to land being a more variable environment, you don’t run into random ditches in the open ocean.