6 ms·

I think it's actually someone demeaning and condescending of humans to consistently describe orcas' hunting techniques as similar to wolves. For one, it's incor

by bmitc 5y ago

I think it's actually someone demeaning and condescending of humans to consistently describe orcas' hunting techniques as similar to wolves. For one, it's incorrect. Wolves do not show any of the coordination that orcas do. Wolves hunt in packs, but that doesn't mean that they cooperate and coordinate with each other. This video is a good example of the chaos of wolves hunting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wl8ZxAaB2E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wl8ZxAaB2E Instead, orcas hunt much more similarly to humans. They speak to each other, coordinate special roles, teach while they're hunting, and they have highly coordinated and practiced attacks. The way they kill whales is usually quite brutal, because it normally requires tiring out the whales first and then start in with bites. Although orcas are ridiculously powerful (their jaw strength is basically immeasurable compared to land animals), they can still be seriously injured by large whales'. So, orcas essentially exhaust the whales and then ram and nick at them until dealing some final blows or drown the whale. During these hunts, the orcas will switch in and out so as to not tire themselves out. As an aside, there have been instances of people seeing humpbacks intervene orca attacks on both humpbacks and other whale species. I would not be surprised in the least if orcas are as intelligent or more so than humans, if such a thing could be determined. Either way, they are seriously intelligent, and their physical capabilities are second to none. They are awe inspiring animals in every way. And yet, we keep them in prisons.

beerandt 5y ago
Other than arguably the level of communication, every single thing you describe about orcas hunting applies to wolves hunting buffalo. ETA: There's also the under appreciated communication aspect of canines (and orcas) ability to take and obey direction from others. There's lots of research on how despite learning from mimicry, non-human primate intelligence might be relatively capped by this limitation.
- michaelwilson 5y ago
  Agree. Wolves use a highly coordinated attack, where lead dogs harry the prey and are replaced as they tire. Also, you need more than a simple strategy to take down an animal that can hurt you by kicking you with sharp hooves, poking you with antlers, or calling on 300 of it's close friends to trample you and your little pack to death.
  - bmitc 5y ago
    It's not anything close to what's been observed in orcas.
    - Maursault 5y ago
      The wolves vs. killer whales debate here is pretty intense. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8V97_DKfhw&t=0m44s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8V97_DKfhw&t=0m44s [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDJgv1iARPg&t=0m28s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDJgv1iARPg&t=0m28s
  - beerandt 5y ago
    Just the process of separating an individual from the herd shows such a great deal of coordination, especially in the case of the herd circling multiple calves or calves with mothers. Watching ~6 wolves chase 6 candidate buffalo, then quickly joining forces as soon as one target makes a mistake is incredible to watch. Same as when they taunt individuals to draw them out and attack the flank. And while the verbal communication of orcas is impressive, the wolves use of howls when out of sight, and visual cues while in sight is no less impressive to me.
- bmitc 5y ago
  That is a big one, is it not? Do we call humans "wolves on two feet"? Communication and cooperation are things orcas exhibit over and over. Also, wolves, as far as I know, are purely instinctual and do not communicate or pass down learned knowledge. Orcas do. There are several documented instances of one or a few individuals in an orca pod discovering some novel way to eat something or discovering a new animal altogether to eat that is then taught within the pod. There's one specific hunting technique for mammal hunting orcas that has been observed that showcases this. When hunting mammals, who have excellent hearing and are intelligent themselves, orcas can sometimes reach a point where it's not working. So, the pod of orcas will resume chatting (vocalizing) and start to leave the area while they choose a single orca to stay silently behind. Once the other orcas leave, the mammals (usually seals) relax, giving the silent orca hiding a chance to capture. Once capture, the other orcas return to share the meal. Wolves don't do anything like that.
  - beerandt 5y ago
    Wolves manage to cooperate fine, communicating with both howls and non-verbal cues. What's more impressive (be it humans playing sports or pack predators hunting): a team calling an audible play while on the attack, or the team that is so well knit that it can accomplish the same without yelling it out loud? >Wolves don't do anything like that. Wolves will both silently stalk and drive/funnel prey to a waiting ambush. And they do vocally call for others to rejoin them when out of sight. I'm not sure what better analog you might expect, given that wolves aren't pursuing above surface prey from underwater. But would you discredit orcas for not climbing out of the water and chasing seals on the ice?
  - Retric 5y ago
    There is a lot of learned behavior in wolf hunting. Juvenile wolves go on hunts without direct participation to observe many times before participating. There is even specialization where faster members of a pack take on different roles. The real difference is large wolf pray doesn’t escape the way seals can onto land but are significantly more dangerous to the wolves. Such prey can both out run them in most cases or severely injury them in direct confrontations, so wolves need to use deep snow, river banks, or extreme exhaustion methods. It’s actually more complex hunting behavior than Orcas vs whales, though adapted to different environments. In terms of communication Alphas don’t seem to micromanage hunts the way Orcas do, but they will call them off etc. Which might relate to land being a more variable environment, you don’t run into random ditches in the open ocean.
reactor4 5y ago
You don't see the cooperation and coordination in the video you just linked?
- bmitc 5y ago
  Not really. I see a lot of chaos. I'm having trouble finding the statistics again, but I think the success rate of stereotypical pack or pride hunters like wolves or lions is actually quite low. Whereas it's my understanding that orca success rates are pretty high, despite hunting far more intelligent animals.
imoverclocked 5y ago
I wouldn’t be surprised if many animals are smarter on average than humans are on average. I think that the only thing we really have on all other animals we know about is a developed system of writing.
- kevinmchugh 5y ago
  It can help to view more specific attributes of intelligence to make comparisons. An easy one, when comparing carnivores/omnivores: how many species can they hunt? Many predators specialize, eating only a single other species. Giant Pacific octopuses have a wide diet. Humans are at the top, though. By a longshot. How about math? There are other species that understand addition and subtraction, I think, but none that can do multiplication or division.
  - imoverclocked 5y ago
    True, there are many metrics for intelligence. Humans also couldn’t do multiplication or division until we collectively had free time and a need to figure it out. Multiplication and division is not innate to our species, it’s something we learned and then wrote down. Our species also knows how to make glass and refined metals and styrofoam and various concrete/mortar/brick formations. I doubt that anyone is an expert in all of the above and that most people in the developed world can only hope to obtain these things by going out and purchasing it from a store. Furthermore, putting a bunch of intelligent but completely uneducated humans on an island is unlikely to result in a colony that understands multiplication and division in the next 100 or maybe even 1000 years. Once humans are put into that setting (zero education), we are no longer comfortably at the top of the food-chain.
    - bmitc 5y ago
      These are all excellent points that I think people forget about and assume that humans have attained some sort of innate intelligence due to our societies and technologies. The ability to store information is a big technological leap. Even then, it's taken us as a species 5,000 years to get here once we had writing.
stjohnswarts 5y ago
I appreciate the facts but you seem to be a bit angry as in blaming all humans for the plight of orcas. Putting all humans in the same category won't win anyone over to your cause.
- bmitc 5y ago
  Misanthropy can sneak in sometimes. I don't lump all humans, but I think it's a majority opinion amongst humans that we are the intelligent animal, and other intelligent animals are only to be compared to each other. Wolves are also cool, but I think it's a bit misleading to call orcas the wolves of the sea. Orcas are actually only one of two animals in the world, other than us, to go through menopause. It's an interesting biological development that some estimate it is so older orca females (orcas are matriarchal societies) to not sexually compete with younger females and can concentrate on leading and teaching to pass down knowledge. Wild orca females live quite long. Like I said, wolves are certainly amazing animals, but I feel orcas are on another level. And we don't cage wolves as brutally as we do orcas. That, I am angry about.
dasickis 5y ago
you'd be interested in joining orcasound slack: https://join.slack.com/t/orcasound/shared_invite/zt-bd1jk2q9-FjeWr3OzocDBwDgS0g1FdQ https://join.slack.com/t/orcasound/shared_invite/zt-bd1jk2q9... We basically just talk about orcas and how we can decode their language moving towards bidirectional comm.
- bmitc 5y ago
  I am definitely interested and just signed up! Thank you for that invite. I'm obsessed with orcas and want to continue learning more.

by bmitc 5y ago

beerandt 5y ago

Other than arguably the level of communication, every single thing you describe about orcas hunting applies to wolves hunting buffalo. ETA: There's also the under appreciated communication aspect of canines (and orcas) ability to take and obey direction from others. There's lots of research on how despite learning from mimicry, non-human primate intelligence might be relatively capped by this limitation.

michaelwilson 5y ago
Agree. Wolves use a highly coordinated attack, where lead dogs harry the prey and are replaced as they tire. Also, you need more than a simple strategy to take down an animal that can hurt you by kicking you with sharp hooves, poking you with antlers, or calling on 300 of it's close friends to trample you and your little pack to death.
- bmitc 5y ago
  It's not anything close to what's been observed in orcas.
  - Maursault 5y ago
    The wolves vs. killer whales debate here is pretty intense. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8V97_DKfhw&t=0m44s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8V97_DKfhw&t=0m44s [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDJgv1iARPg&t=0m28s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDJgv1iARPg&t=0m28s
- beerandt 5y ago
  Just the process of separating an individual from the herd shows such a great deal of coordination, especially in the case of the herd circling multiple calves or calves with mothers. Watching ~6 wolves chase 6 candidate buffalo, then quickly joining forces as soon as one target makes a mistake is incredible to watch. Same as when they taunt individuals to draw them out and attack the flank. And while the verbal communication of orcas is impressive, the wolves use of howls when out of sight, and visual cues while in sight is no less impressive to me.
bmitc 5y ago
That is a big one, is it not? Do we call humans "wolves on two feet"? Communication and cooperation are things orcas exhibit over and over. Also, wolves, as far as I know, are purely instinctual and do not communicate or pass down learned knowledge. Orcas do. There are several documented instances of one or a few individuals in an orca pod discovering some novel way to eat something or discovering a new animal altogether to eat that is then taught within the pod. There's one specific hunting technique for mammal hunting orcas that has been observed that showcases this. When hunting mammals, who have excellent hearing and are intelligent themselves, orcas can sometimes reach a point where it's not working. So, the pod of orcas will resume chatting (vocalizing) and start to leave the area while they choose a single orca to stay silently behind. Once the other orcas leave, the mammals (usually seals) relax, giving the silent orca hiding a chance to capture. Once capture, the other orcas return to share the meal. Wolves don't do anything like that.
- beerandt 5y ago
  Wolves manage to cooperate fine, communicating with both howls and non-verbal cues. What's more impressive (be it humans playing sports or pack predators hunting): a team calling an audible play while on the attack, or the team that is so well knit that it can accomplish the same without yelling it out loud? >Wolves don't do anything like that. Wolves will both silently stalk and drive/funnel prey to a waiting ambush. And they do vocally call for others to rejoin them when out of sight. I'm not sure what better analog you might expect, given that wolves aren't pursuing above surface prey from underwater. But would you discredit orcas for not climbing out of the water and chasing seals on the ice?
- Retric 5y ago
  There is a lot of learned behavior in wolf hunting. Juvenile wolves go on hunts without direct participation to observe many times before participating. There is even specialization where faster members of a pack take on different roles. The real difference is large wolf pray doesn’t escape the way seals can onto land but are significantly more dangerous to the wolves. Such prey can both out run them in most cases or severely injury them in direct confrontations, so wolves need to use deep snow, river banks, or extreme exhaustion methods. It’s actually more complex hunting behavior than Orcas vs whales, though adapted to different environments. In terms of communication Alphas don’t seem to micromanage hunts the way Orcas do, but they will call them off etc. Which might relate to land being a more variable environment, you don’t run into random ditches in the open ocean.

reactor4 5y ago

You don't see the cooperation and coordination in the video you just linked?

bmitc 5y ago
Not really. I see a lot of chaos. I'm having trouble finding the statistics again, but I think the success rate of stereotypical pack or pride hunters like wolves or lions is actually quite low. Whereas it's my understanding that orca success rates are pretty high, despite hunting far more intelligent animals.

imoverclocked 5y ago

I wouldn’t be surprised if many animals are smarter on average than humans are on average. I think that the only thing we really have on all other animals we know about is a developed system of writing.

kevinmchugh 5y ago
It can help to view more specific attributes of intelligence to make comparisons. An easy one, when comparing carnivores/omnivores: how many species can they hunt? Many predators specialize, eating only a single other species. Giant Pacific octopuses have a wide diet. Humans are at the top, though. By a longshot. How about math? There are other species that understand addition and subtraction, I think, but none that can do multiplication or division.
- imoverclocked 5y ago
  True, there are many metrics for intelligence. Humans also couldn’t do multiplication or division until we collectively had free time and a need to figure it out. Multiplication and division is not innate to our species, it’s something we learned and then wrote down. Our species also knows how to make glass and refined metals and styrofoam and various concrete/mortar/brick formations. I doubt that anyone is an expert in all of the above and that most people in the developed world can only hope to obtain these things by going out and purchasing it from a store. Furthermore, putting a bunch of intelligent but completely uneducated humans on an island is unlikely to result in a colony that understands multiplication and division in the next 100 or maybe even 1000 years. Once humans are put into that setting (zero education), we are no longer comfortably at the top of the food-chain.
  - bmitc 5y ago
    These are all excellent points that I think people forget about and assume that humans have attained some sort of innate intelligence due to our societies and technologies. The ability to store information is a big technological leap. Even then, it's taken us as a species 5,000 years to get here once we had writing.

stjohnswarts 5y ago

I appreciate the facts but you seem to be a bit angry as in blaming all humans for the plight of orcas. Putting all humans in the same category won't win anyone over to your cause.

bmitc 5y ago
Misanthropy can sneak in sometimes. I don't lump all humans, but I think it's a majority opinion amongst humans that we are the intelligent animal, and other intelligent animals are only to be compared to each other. Wolves are also cool, but I think it's a bit misleading to call orcas the wolves of the sea. Orcas are actually only one of two animals in the world, other than us, to go through menopause. It's an interesting biological development that some estimate it is so older orca females (orcas are matriarchal societies) to not sexually compete with younger females and can concentrate on leading and teaching to pass down knowledge. Wild orca females live quite long. Like I said, wolves are certainly amazing animals, but I feel orcas are on another level. And we don't cage wolves as brutally as we do orcas. That, I am angry about.

dasickis 5y ago

you'd be interested in joining orcasound slack: https://join.slack.com/t/orcasound/shared_invite/zt-bd1jk2q9-FjeWr3OzocDBwDgS0g1FdQ https://join.slack.com/t/orcasound/shared_invite/zt-bd1jk2q9... We basically just talk about orcas and how we can decode their language moving towards bidirectional comm.

bmitc 5y ago
I am definitely interested and just signed up! Thank you for that invite. I'm obsessed with orcas and want to continue learning more.