4 ms·

A little off the deep end when he gets to the philosophical part (which I understand is what the bulk of the book it is excerpted from is focused on). It's qui

by zmmmmm 5y ago

A little off the deep end when he gets to the philosophical part (which I understand is what the bulk of the book it is excerpted from is focused on). It's quite weird at the moment how we have a mix of people with completely discordant views about VR: still lots of people viewing it as a failed experiment from 10 years ago, written it off as having no interest and no future ("I have a VR headset; I got bored with it after a few days and now its in the closet" - most tech journalists); vs those who have pretty much factored in that VR will take over and become a mainstream if not dominant computing experience in a meaningful timeframe. One thing is clear: with Facebook all in on the Metaverse, Microsoft purchasing Blizzard with one of the core stated reasons that it will empower their "metaverse", and Apple on the brink of releasing a VR product - the hype is back and a huge amount of cash is going to get sunk into VR. Whatever that means for the long term, I'm glad it probably will mean there are some short term dollars to propel the fundamental tech along. Whatever happens, it will be fun to play with that.

Animats 5y ago
I'm glad it probably will mean there are some short term dollars to propel the fundamental tech along. Whatever happens, it will be fun to play with that. Agreed. I think the Metaverse will be a niche, but it will soon become a much higher quality niche.
- chaostheory 5y ago
  > Metaverse will be a niche One big reason for this is some strange social stigma surrounding VR. Yes, there are many other issues like cost (minimum $2000 investment for a VR ready PC and headset) and complexity if you’re not using Oculus / Meta. Then there’s also Facebook’s toxic brand, which drives away many early tech adopters; but what if we were able to take them out of the equation? Anyways, I did an experiment last Christmas. I got several family members Oculus Meta Quest 2 headsets. At the same time Meta was offering a $60 referral credit where both you and the new Quest user would get $60 in store credit. To summarize, I removed the barrier of monetary cost, and Meta removed the barrier of complexity from VR (ie no wires, or PC setup). None of these people had a bad opinion of Facebook either. What was the result? They tried the free demos once and stopped using it. It wasn’t until I constantly pestered them, that they actually tried apps with free credits and games and started to understand VR and use it more regularly, namely the fitness and social apps. I even recently talked to Meta contractor who mentioned that she wasn’t interested in a free Quest 2 headset even though she held the company in high regard. I feel for VR marketing teams. Until Apple helps make this mainstream, XR will have a very big hill to climb.
  - oneoff786 5y ago
    You’re assuming VR is a paradigm shift and not just a gimmicky console like the Wii. There’s nothing particularly interesting in VR, at least not yet. Most games suck. The ones that don’t are largely stationary with little rotation if at all. There’s a fundamental problem that humans, even when not constrained by space, aren’t very agile, and much less so wearing a vr headset. It still sucks. I have an index.
    - chaostheory 5y ago
      Do you really have an Index? The reason I ask is because I highly disagree with your statement about games being “largely stationary with little rotation at all”. It’s the exact opposite, which is why having a wire is so annoying. VR is a huge paradigm shift. It’s just still in its infancy. Similar to the internet in the mid 1990s.
      - oneoff786 5y ago
        Like what games?
        chaostheory 5y ago
        Virtually every first person VR game that isn't a driving or flying sim needs turning or it kills immersion: - Alyx - Boneworks - Blades & Sorcery / GORN - Skyrim / Fallout 4 VR - Onward, Zero Caliber, Population One, Contractors - Racket NX - Minecraft - Lone Echo - holopoint There's really too many games to name, and I can name more. A huge pain point for me prior to getting the Quest 2 was tangled wires from too much turning. The only games where there's no turning involved are fitness apps like Fit XR and ping pong. Even Beatsaber and SuperNatural have 360 degree levels. Your comment makes me wonder if you've ever used your Index, or if you even own a VR headset because it sounds bizarre.
        oneoff786 5y ago
        Alyx is cool but it also sucks. The little interactions with items feel novel. The combat is bad. It’s a thin layer of game design tricks to make you think you’re in something intricate but it’s actually dumb as rocks. The lightning dogs are the peak of this. Even on the hardest difficulty they telegraph their attacks for like… 10 seconds. It’s not clear if it’s possible to dodge it by physically walking 5m. The game wants you to teleport pretty much anywhere to “dodge” it. I don’t blame valve for this. What they almost certainly realized is that humans are incompetent in vr so the enemies need to be dumb as rocks. Not that the AI is bad or anything, but the principles behind their behavior are built for the fact that humans are slow, have low situational awareness, and and especially in vr don’t have a good intuition for where their body is exposed. The electric dogs are still decently challenging. But the limitations on it were incredibly immersion breaking to me, much more than having a helmet benefited. Superhot solves this the other way by having very short high failure levels and just letting you lose due to human incompetence at your own pace. It works pretty well but it’s not a generalizable strategy for other games. I’m looking to do boneworks next. I’ve never felt wires were a real problem. Mostly because the games I play don’t involve moving around much. I have tried wireless. I have also done one of those vr domes with a huge open warehouses and multiplayer vr shooters with mild graphics but big gun peripherals. This is the biggest freedom you could possibly have. In my experience playing and watching others, people just slowly walk from place to place, rotate in place, and stand still shooting while monsters get too close and “hit” them because melee attacks feel unintuitive still. They move like they’re an old resident evil tank control character lol.
mulligan 5y ago
One important thing to understand is the "metaverse" these companies are trying to build for is both VR and AR. Not solely VR.
telxosser 5y ago
The problem is I think there is a bias created when we still call our hand held computers that can make telephone calls, "phones". There is just not that many situations that a VR headset is a better UI than a hand held computer. The opposite is actually true. If everyone was using VR headsets then it would be obvious that the hand held computer is the next big thing. You are finally free to not have to wear this goofy headset and still do 99% of what you would have done outside of gaming in VR.

by zmmmmm 5y ago

Animats 5y ago

I'm glad it probably will mean there are some short term dollars to propel the fundamental tech along. Whatever happens, it will be fun to play with that. Agreed. I think the Metaverse will be a niche, but it will soon become a much higher quality niche.

chaostheory 5y ago
> Metaverse will be a niche One big reason for this is some strange social stigma surrounding VR. Yes, there are many other issues like cost (minimum $2000 investment for a VR ready PC and headset) and complexity if you’re not using Oculus / Meta. Then there’s also Facebook’s toxic brand, which drives away many early tech adopters; but what if we were able to take them out of the equation? Anyways, I did an experiment last Christmas. I got several family members Oculus Meta Quest 2 headsets. At the same time Meta was offering a $60 referral credit where both you and the new Quest user would get $60 in store credit. To summarize, I removed the barrier of monetary cost, and Meta removed the barrier of complexity from VR (ie no wires, or PC setup). None of these people had a bad opinion of Facebook either. What was the result? They tried the free demos once and stopped using it. It wasn’t until I constantly pestered them, that they actually tried apps with free credits and games and started to understand VR and use it more regularly, namely the fitness and social apps. I even recently talked to Meta contractor who mentioned that she wasn’t interested in a free Quest 2 headset even though she held the company in high regard. I feel for VR marketing teams. Until Apple helps make this mainstream, XR will have a very big hill to climb.
- oneoff786 5y ago
  You’re assuming VR is a paradigm shift and not just a gimmicky console like the Wii. There’s nothing particularly interesting in VR, at least not yet. Most games suck. The ones that don’t are largely stationary with little rotation if at all. There’s a fundamental problem that humans, even when not constrained by space, aren’t very agile, and much less so wearing a vr headset. It still sucks. I have an index.
  - chaostheory 5y ago
    Do you really have an Index? The reason I ask is because I highly disagree with your statement about games being “largely stationary with little rotation at all”. It’s the exact opposite, which is why having a wire is so annoying. VR is a huge paradigm shift. It’s just still in its infancy. Similar to the internet in the mid 1990s.
    - oneoff786 5y ago
      Like what games?
      - chaostheory 5y ago
        Virtually every first person VR game that isn't a driving or flying sim needs turning or it kills immersion: - Alyx - Boneworks - Blades & Sorcery / GORN - Skyrim / Fallout 4 VR - Onward, Zero Caliber, Population One, Contractors - Racket NX - Minecraft - Lone Echo - holopoint There's really too many games to name, and I can name more. A huge pain point for me prior to getting the Quest 2 was tangled wires from too much turning. The only games where there's no turning involved are fitness apps like Fit XR and ping pong. Even Beatsaber and SuperNatural have 360 degree levels. Your comment makes me wonder if you've ever used your Index, or if you even own a VR headset because it sounds bizarre.
        oneoff786 5y ago
        Alyx is cool but it also sucks. The little interactions with items feel novel. The combat is bad. It’s a thin layer of game design tricks to make you think you’re in something intricate but it’s actually dumb as rocks. The lightning dogs are the peak of this. Even on the hardest difficulty they telegraph their attacks for like… 10 seconds. It’s not clear if it’s possible to dodge it by physically walking 5m. The game wants you to teleport pretty much anywhere to “dodge” it. I don’t blame valve for this. What they almost certainly realized is that humans are incompetent in vr so the enemies need to be dumb as rocks. Not that the AI is bad or anything, but the principles behind their behavior are built for the fact that humans are slow, have low situational awareness, and and especially in vr don’t have a good intuition for where their body is exposed. The electric dogs are still decently challenging. But the limitations on it were incredibly immersion breaking to me, much more than having a helmet benefited. Superhot solves this the other way by having very short high failure levels and just letting you lose due to human incompetence at your own pace. It works pretty well but it’s not a generalizable strategy for other games. I’m looking to do boneworks next. I’ve never felt wires were a real problem. Mostly because the games I play don’t involve moving around much. I have tried wireless. I have also done one of those vr domes with a huge open warehouses and multiplayer vr shooters with mild graphics but big gun peripherals. This is the biggest freedom you could possibly have. In my experience playing and watching others, people just slowly walk from place to place, rotate in place, and stand still shooting while monsters get too close and “hit” them because melee attacks feel unintuitive still. They move like they’re an old resident evil tank control character lol.

mulligan 5y ago

One important thing to understand is the "metaverse" these companies are trying to build for is both VR and AR. Not solely VR.

telxosser 5y ago

The problem is I think there is a bias created when we still call our hand held computers that can make telephone calls, "phones". There is just not that many situations that a VR headset is a better UI than a hand held computer. The opposite is actually true. If everyone was using VR headsets then it would be obvious that the hand held computer is the next big thing. You are finally free to not have to wear this goofy headset and still do 99% of what you would have done outside of gaming in VR.