8 ms·

I love that they don't allow side-loading. Long live the walled garden. (I mean this non-sarcastically)

netr0ute 5y ago
Ironic
anfilt 5y ago
You really like the idea of a company controlling property you own after you bought it??? Like if its optional don’t change the defaults. The issue is starting from the boot-rom and up apple is effectively using cryptography to retain the property right of exclusion when it comes to what code can run on that ARM cpu. Effectively you have to ask apple for approval of any code that will run on your own hardware. If they sign the code they allow it run if they don’t its excluded from running. If you have to keep asking a 3rd party to do something with something you bought you don't fully own it. The thing is normally a seller wishing to retain some rights to real or tangible property would normally require a legal contract between the buyer. Here however apple is using cryptography to bypass traditional legal means. You can buy an iPhone, iPad without signing any contract. Yet this effectively retained control of the hardware still exists. You can’t just buy the hardware and throw linux or android on it short of finding a weakness in how code is loaded.
- School-Cotton 5y ago
  > You really like the idea of a company controlling property you own after you bought it??? If I didn’t, I wouldn’t buy an iPhone. What’s the problem?
  - immibis 5y ago
    Vendor lock-in
- i_like_apis 5y ago
  > You really like the idea of a company controlling property you own after you bought it??? > right of exclusion when it comes to what code can run on that ARM cpu Yes I like it for the phone. The walled garden has very little malware and has high quality apps. I am never pestered to install crapware or malware and I don't have to be paranoid about it. You can still run your own development software on these machines, and software distributed in controlled channels outside of the store. The controls are reasonably convenient and necessary to keep unwanted software out. Compare it to Android Play Store or much worse the Galaxy store situation. The grass is much greener in the walled garden. For the Mac, it's a different story, you can and should be able to run whatever you want on it. But iPhone as a product is a well tended garden (controlled but quite wide and powerful) and I can appreciate that.
  - anfilt 5y ago
    If its optional dont enable it/use it. I would be more concerned with companies using extralegal means to effectively infringe your property rights...
    - cuddlybacon 5y ago
      Then shady apps will include instructions on how to bypass the security mechanisms. You already see this in Windows where game hacks (or just really shitty game mod sites) often request you disable security features to ensure they don't interfere with the hack.
      - keleftheriou 5y ago
        This is a big misconception. Sideloading doesn’t imply that app isolation (sandboxing) is also going away, nor does it imply that any app would ever be able to trick the user into running it with escalated privileges (sudo/root) as is the case on most computers. We’re not talking about going back to the old Windows security model where you were always one wrong click away from damaging other apps or the OS, or having your data stolen.
    - i_like_apis 5y ago
throwaway14356 5y ago
i like the otwelian angle. side loading, as if you've done something naughty. we could use it for other things like side loading "your" garage or your fridge
cuddlybacon 5y ago
I really hope that if Apple is ever forced to open up their devices, that it takes the form of allowing other app stores and not allowing side-loading. If side loading is allowed the amount of tech support I'll have to provide my family will skyrocket.
- ikt 5y ago
  how big is your family that an option an overwhelming majority of android users don't touch or even know about is going to skyrocket your support levels? i don't even want to think about the level of intelligence you're suggesting your family has that they will go above and beyond the average person in deliberately breaking their own phones.
- arepublicadoceu 5y ago
  > I really hope that if Apple is ever forced to open up their devices, that it takes the form of allowing other app stores and not allowing side-loading. > If side loading is allowed the amount of tech support I'll have to provide my family will skyrocket. I mean, if apple ever allow sideloading I suspect it will be behind a 10 feet wall warning and obscure multiple clicks on settings, similar to how google does it. I also suspect that my family will be divided into two camps: oblivious to the existence of sideloading or technical enough that won't need my tech support.
- keleftheriou 5y ago
  Sideloading doesn’t imply that app isolation (sandboxing) is also going away, nor does it imply that any app would ever be able to trick the user into running it with escalated privileges (sudo/root) as is the case on most computers. We’re not talking about going back to the old Windows security model where you were always one wrong click away from damaging other apps or the OS, or having your data stolen.
- curt15 5y ago
  Do none of your family members already use desktop computers?
  - 5y ago
Underphil 5y ago
Curious take, this. Allowing side-loading would only have a net positive impact on those who desire it, and zero impact on you who wants the walled garden. So why the opposition?
- elondaits 5y ago
  Not necessarily true. Some companies (Epic?) might choose to distribute apps exclusively via sideloading… and you can’t always choose not to install an app (e.g. WhatsApp is sadly essential in my country for work, social life, ordering food and even getting COVID vaccines, since the government uses it to hand appointments)
  - anfilt 5y ago
    Epic tried it on android but the law of defaults are strong. Too much friction for an average user but at least on most android devices users can enable developer mode or even root if they want. So google here is not trampling over device owner’s property rights.
  - mdoms 5y ago
    But right now Epic doesn't (can't) distribute on the main app store. So either way you're not using it.
- joshuamorton 5y ago
  This is true only if you presume social engineering is impossible.
  - keleftheriou 5y ago
    But sideloading doesn’t imply that app isolation (sandboxing) is also going away, nor does it imply that any app would ever be able to trick the user into running it with escalated privileges (sudo/root) as is the case on most computers. We’re not talking about going back to the old Windows security model where you were always one wrong click away from damaging other apps or the OS, or having your data stolen.
post_break 5y ago
If that's the case you should only use iOS devices for everything. No macbook pro, no PC. It's so easy to think the walled garden is great when you can just jump out of it when you need to do actual work or run an app Apple has deemed unfit for the appstore.
- i_like_apis 5y ago
  I love it for the phone. Obviously Macbook is a different product, with different use cases. You can and should run whatever you like on Macbook. They are both well-tended gardens of different types for different uses. Much higher walls on the phone is a great feature IMO.
  - post_break 5y ago
    Then why can’t I run whatever I want on my phone? The logic here makes zero sense. A computer is a computer whether it fits in your pocket or sits on a desk.
    - fingerlocks 5y ago
      > Then why can’t I run whatever I want on my phone? You can, legally. You have that right. You can legally jailbreak a supported iPhone in 10 minutes and sideload all day or lldb attach to whatever you want. Nobody will stop you. But Apple doesn't want to support an open platform. That's their right. They don't want it to part of their ecosystem, their brand, or provide the avalanche of non-negligible support costs. The distinction here is important and rarely addressed in these discussion.
      - folkrav 5y ago
        > Nobody will stop you. I mean, Apple blocked countless jailbreaks as of today. It's AFAIK also against their ToS, therefore means they legally try to make it so you don't jailbreak. Can you _really_? Sounds more like a gray area they simply cannot control, but they're definitely trying their hardest to do so...
rezonant 5y ago

Ironic

You really like the idea of a company controlling property you own after you bought it??? Like if its optional don’t change the defaults. The issue is starting from the boot-rom and up apple is effectively using cryptography to retain the property right of exclusion when it comes to what code can run on that ARM cpu. Effectively you have to ask apple for approval of any code that will run on your own hardware. If they sign the code they allow it run if they don’t its excluded from running. If you have to keep asking a 3rd party to do something with something you bought you don't fully own it. The thing is normally a seller wishing to retain some rights to real or tangible property would normally require a legal contract between the buyer. Here however apple is using cryptography to bypass traditional legal means. You can buy an iPhone, iPad without signing any contract. Yet this effectively retained control of the hardware still exists. You can’t just buy the hardware and throw linux or android on it short of finding a weakness in how code is loaded.

School-Cotton 5y ago
> You really like the idea of a company controlling property you own after you bought it??? If I didn’t, I wouldn’t buy an iPhone. What’s the problem?
- immibis 5y ago
  Vendor lock-in
i_like_apis 5y ago
> You really like the idea of a company controlling property you own after you bought it??? > right of exclusion when it comes to what code can run on that ARM cpu Yes I like it for the phone. The walled garden has very little malware and has high quality apps. I am never pestered to install crapware or malware and I don't have to be paranoid about it. You can still run your own development software on these machines, and software distributed in controlled channels outside of the store. The controls are reasonably convenient and necessary to keep unwanted software out. Compare it to Android Play Store or much worse the Galaxy store situation. The grass is much greener in the walled garden. For the Mac, it's a different story, you can and should be able to run whatever you want on it. But iPhone as a product is a well tended garden (controlled but quite wide and powerful) and I can appreciate that.
- anfilt 5y ago
  If its optional dont enable it/use it. I would be more concerned with companies using extralegal means to effectively infringe your property rights...
  - cuddlybacon 5y ago
    Then shady apps will include instructions on how to bypass the security mechanisms. You already see this in Windows where game hacks (or just really shitty game mod sites) often request you disable security features to ensure they don't interfere with the hack.
    - keleftheriou 5y ago
      This is a big misconception. Sideloading doesn’t imply that app isolation (sandboxing) is also going away, nor does it imply that any app would ever be able to trick the user into running it with escalated privileges (sudo/root) as is the case on most computers. We’re not talking about going back to the old Windows security model where you were always one wrong click away from damaging other apps or the OS, or having your data stolen.
  - i_like_apis 5y ago

throwaway14356 5y ago

i like the otwelian angle. side loading, as if you've done something naughty. we could use it for other things like side loading "your" garage or your fridge

cuddlybacon 5y ago

I really hope that if Apple is ever forced to open up their devices, that it takes the form of allowing other app stores and not allowing side-loading. If side loading is allowed the amount of tech support I'll have to provide my family will skyrocket.

ikt 5y ago
how big is your family that an option an overwhelming majority of android users don't touch or even know about is going to skyrocket your support levels? i don't even want to think about the level of intelligence you're suggesting your family has that they will go above and beyond the average person in deliberately breaking their own phones.
arepublicadoceu 5y ago
> I really hope that if Apple is ever forced to open up their devices, that it takes the form of allowing other app stores and not allowing side-loading. > If side loading is allowed the amount of tech support I'll have to provide my family will skyrocket. I mean, if apple ever allow sideloading I suspect it will be behind a 10 feet wall warning and obscure multiple clicks on settings, similar to how google does it. I also suspect that my family will be divided into two camps: oblivious to the existence of sideloading or technical enough that won't need my tech support.
keleftheriou 5y ago
Sideloading doesn’t imply that app isolation (sandboxing) is also going away, nor does it imply that any app would ever be able to trick the user into running it with escalated privileges (sudo/root) as is the case on most computers. We’re not talking about going back to the old Windows security model where you were always one wrong click away from damaging other apps or the OS, or having your data stolen.
curt15 5y ago
Do none of your family members already use desktop computers?
- 5y ago

Underphil 5y ago

Curious take, this. Allowing side-loading would only have a net positive impact on those who desire it, and zero impact on you who wants the walled garden. So why the opposition?

elondaits 5y ago
Not necessarily true. Some companies (Epic?) might choose to distribute apps exclusively via sideloading… and you can’t always choose not to install an app (e.g. WhatsApp is sadly essential in my country for work, social life, ordering food and even getting COVID vaccines, since the government uses it to hand appointments)
- anfilt 5y ago
  Epic tried it on android but the law of defaults are strong. Too much friction for an average user but at least on most android devices users can enable developer mode or even root if they want. So google here is not trampling over device owner’s property rights.
- mdoms 5y ago
  But right now Epic doesn't (can't) distribute on the main app store. So either way you're not using it.
joshuamorton 5y ago
This is true only if you presume social engineering is impossible.
- keleftheriou 5y ago
  But sideloading doesn’t imply that app isolation (sandboxing) is also going away, nor does it imply that any app would ever be able to trick the user into running it with escalated privileges (sudo/root) as is the case on most computers. We’re not talking about going back to the old Windows security model where you were always one wrong click away from damaging other apps or the OS, or having your data stolen.

post_break 5y ago

If that's the case you should only use iOS devices for everything. No macbook pro, no PC. It's so easy to think the walled garden is great when you can just jump out of it when you need to do actual work or run an app Apple has deemed unfit for the appstore.

i_like_apis 5y ago
I love it for the phone. Obviously Macbook is a different product, with different use cases. You can and should run whatever you like on Macbook. They are both well-tended gardens of different types for different uses. Much higher walls on the phone is a great feature IMO.
- post_break 5y ago
  Then why can’t I run whatever I want on my phone? The logic here makes zero sense. A computer is a computer whether it fits in your pocket or sits on a desk.
  - fingerlocks 5y ago
    > Then why can’t I run whatever I want on my phone? You can, legally. You have that right. You can legally jailbreak a supported iPhone in 10 minutes and sideload all day or lldb attach to whatever you want. Nobody will stop you. But Apple doesn't want to support an open platform. That's their right. They don't want it to part of their ecosystem, their brand, or provide the avalanche of non-negligible support costs. The distinction here is important and rarely addressed in these discussion.
    - folkrav 5y ago
      > Nobody will stop you. I mean, Apple blocked countless jailbreaks as of today. It's AFAIK also against their ToS, therefore means they legally try to make it so you don't jailbreak. Can you _really_? Sounds more like a gray area they simply cannot control, but they're definitely trying their hardest to do so...

rezonant 5y ago