5 ms·

The answer is pretty straight-forward. Every time we tried this before it collapsed into a giant ball of flame. Nothing crypto is producing is new. We've had

The answer is pretty straight-forward. Every time we tried this before it collapsed into a giant ball of flame. Nothing crypto is producing is new. We've had stablecoins before in the form of wildcat banks. [1] They were backed at some point by barrels of nails with a few flakes of gold on top, and what little gold there was, was spirited around from bank to bank in front of the inspectors. That ended predictably. We've had "ICOs" in the form of blue sky securities. [2] Companies that did nothing sold on the premise that you could simply sell the shares to someone else for more money. That ended predictably. We've had "high yield investment platforms" in the form of actual honest-to-goodness Ponzi schemes before. That ended predictably. We've had free reign access to leverage to buy more securities before - it led to the Great Depression. We had rhypothecation of securities and totally baseless collateral generation before - it led to the Great Recession. Crypto hasn't created anything new fundamentally, it's just re-hashing all the stuff we outlawed before because it was an objective breeding ground of fraud and crime and grift. The only thing new about the crypto economy is that the pitches are structured as "${previously_failed_idea} except on the Internet." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildcat_banking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildcat_banking [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_sky_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_sky_law

momojo 5y ago
> Crypto hasn't created anything new fundamentally Orchids and Baseball cards and Beanie-Babies. We don't need a decentralized immutable, distributed ledger to verify something's value. We're already good at prescribing disproportionate value to arbitrary things. I don't think we ever cared that it was centralized or not.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
yrral 5y ago
> The answer is pretty straight-forward. Every time we tried this before it collapsed into a giant ball of flame. This is availability heuristic. Many financial innovations work out well and power everything we do today without a second thought. Credit cards, internet banking, mobile banking, etc etc etc. Should we ban all financial innovations because a subset can cause collapse? For stablecoins, the difference here is that all data is open. So for example with the latest news with MIM/abracadabra, all the loans/treasuries and collateralization ratios are viewable by everyone [1] and on chain as well. For Dai/frax/etc as well. [1] https://dashboard.abracadabra.money/ https://dashboard.abracadabra.money/ For ICOs, this exists today as well in our regular regulated markets as well. Don't tell me you think AMC or GME is worth what they are worth. > Crypto hasn't created anything new fundamentally, it's just re-hashing all the stuff we outlawed before because it was an objective breeding ground of fraud and crime and grift. The only thing new about the crypto economy is that the pitches are structured as "${previously_failed_idea} except on the Internet." I'm not sure this is true.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  > This is availability heuristic. Many financial innovations work out well and power everything we do today without a second thought. Credit cards, internet banking, mobile banking, etc etc etc. Should we ban all financial innovations because a subset can cause collapse? All of these tools are strictly regulated specifically to avoid that collapse. Because we learned from when they collapsed before not to let them run wild and do whatever they wanted because it's a bad time. > For stablecoins, the difference here is that all data is open. Only some fraction of the data is open. You have no access to exchange books. You can see where things are on chain, but the backing is completely opaque. Have you seen Tether's audits? I haven't. I know they wired all the cash to back one attestation over from Bitfinex the morning of the attestation and wired it back. Hat tip to the New York Attorney General. And they're far and away the largest. Trustlessness can by definition only extend to what can be wholly represented on chain. Stablecoins cannot. > For ICOs, this exists today as well in our regular regulated markets as well. Don't tell me you think AMC or GME is worth what they are worth. They're not good investments because they're overpriced, but they're not zero-sum. They have customers and the intrinsic value of the shares increases (ideally) through dividends, buybacks and capital reinvestment over time. This means returns aren't exclusively generated by other shareholders but instead through a third party (customers). Not every equity will win, and you can of course lose money buying them, but equities are positive sum. Don't conflate a stock being "worth what they're selling for" with them being a zero-sum game like token offerings.
  - disruptalot 5y ago
    > Trustlessness can by definition only extend to what can be wholly represented on chain. Stablecoins cannot. Many algorithmic stablecoins like DAI can be fully audited on chain and have proved to be robust (so far, 4 years). They let you trustlessly borrow USD, top up your collateral and whatever else you would do with a loan but with no middlemen. I've been reading your comments for a while, and have been getting real value from it but I think you are missing the mark on the detail. Unfortunately to really tell the difference, it requires an indepth exploration, preferably actually coding it. I know this is a cop out for an argument, but from experience it takes dozens of replies to really get to this depth.
mattwilsonn888 5y ago
Why is it that everything a crypto die-hard says is held to the flame but when you are a skeptic you are allowed to be ignorant and obtuse? The space needs hard looks for every claim said, not just the positives. Most people in crypto are aware of why Tether is bad. In fact a huge portion of stable-coins are handled algorithmically and backed by their network asset. You are building strawmen, likely out of ignorance.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  > Most people in crypto are aware of why Tether is bad. In fact a huge portion of stable-coins are handled algorithmically and backed by their network asset. You are building strawmen, likely out of ignorance. haha, I strongly suspect I know much more about this space than your average coiner. Simply because you disagree doesn't make my positions wrong. You haven't actually indicated anything wrong with my position other than your frustration and a few ad hominem attacks. Algorithmic stablecoins are (a) a tiny fraction of the stablecoin space and (b) pegs. Pegs are honey pots for attackers. This is true in classical finance too - and attacking the peg can be extremely lucrative. Just yesterday MIM and UST got knocked off their pegs. I'm led to believe this isn't the first time UST got knocked off its peg and required airdropping hundreds of millions onto it. And knocking the GBP off its peg is how Soros made his money. Fractionally reserved stablecoins that never lose their peg are a perpetual motion machine. [1] [1] https://bennettftomlin.com/2021/07/27/my-second-appearance-on-the-blockchain-debate-podcast-with-sam-kazemian/ https://bennettftomlin.com/2021/07/27/my-second-appearance-o...

momojo 5y ago

> Crypto hasn't created anything new fundamentally Orchids and Baseball cards and Beanie-Babies. We don't need a decentralized immutable, distributed ledger to verify something's value. We're already good at prescribing disproportionate value to arbitrary things. I don't think we ever cared that it was centralized or not.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

yrral 5y ago

> The answer is pretty straight-forward. Every time we tried this before it collapsed into a giant ball of flame. This is availability heuristic. Many financial innovations work out well and power everything we do today without a second thought. Credit cards, internet banking, mobile banking, etc etc etc. Should we ban all financial innovations because a subset can cause collapse? For stablecoins, the difference here is that all data is open. So for example with the latest news with MIM/abracadabra, all the loans/treasuries and collateralization ratios are viewable by everyone [1] and on chain as well. For Dai/frax/etc as well. [1] https://dashboard.abracadabra.money/ https://dashboard.abracadabra.money/ For ICOs, this exists today as well in our regular regulated markets as well. Don't tell me you think AMC or GME is worth what they are worth. > Crypto hasn't created anything new fundamentally, it's just re-hashing all the stuff we outlawed before because it was an objective breeding ground of fraud and crime and grift. The only thing new about the crypto economy is that the pitches are structured as "${previously_failed_idea} except on the Internet." I'm not sure this is true.

arcticbull 5y ago
> This is availability heuristic. Many financial innovations work out well and power everything we do today without a second thought. Credit cards, internet banking, mobile banking, etc etc etc. Should we ban all financial innovations because a subset can cause collapse? All of these tools are strictly regulated specifically to avoid that collapse. Because we learned from when they collapsed before not to let them run wild and do whatever they wanted because it's a bad time. > For stablecoins, the difference here is that all data is open. Only some fraction of the data is open. You have no access to exchange books. You can see where things are on chain, but the backing is completely opaque. Have you seen Tether's audits? I haven't. I know they wired all the cash to back one attestation over from Bitfinex the morning of the attestation and wired it back. Hat tip to the New York Attorney General. And they're far and away the largest. Trustlessness can by definition only extend to what can be wholly represented on chain. Stablecoins cannot. > For ICOs, this exists today as well in our regular regulated markets as well. Don't tell me you think AMC or GME is worth what they are worth. They're not good investments because they're overpriced, but they're not zero-sum. They have customers and the intrinsic value of the shares increases (ideally) through dividends, buybacks and capital reinvestment over time. This means returns aren't exclusively generated by other shareholders but instead through a third party (customers). Not every equity will win, and you can of course lose money buying them, but equities are positive sum. Don't conflate a stock being "worth what they're selling for" with them being a zero-sum game like token offerings.
- disruptalot 5y ago
  > Trustlessness can by definition only extend to what can be wholly represented on chain. Stablecoins cannot. Many algorithmic stablecoins like DAI can be fully audited on chain and have proved to be robust (so far, 4 years). They let you trustlessly borrow USD, top up your collateral and whatever else you would do with a loan but with no middlemen. I've been reading your comments for a while, and have been getting real value from it but I think you are missing the mark on the detail. Unfortunately to really tell the difference, it requires an indepth exploration, preferably actually coding it. I know this is a cop out for an argument, but from experience it takes dozens of replies to really get to this depth.

mattwilsonn888 5y ago

Why is it that everything a crypto die-hard says is held to the flame but when you are a skeptic you are allowed to be ignorant and obtuse? The space needs hard looks for every claim said, not just the positives. Most people in crypto are aware of why Tether is bad. In fact a huge portion of stable-coins are handled algorithmically and backed by their network asset. You are building strawmen, likely out of ignorance.

arcticbull 5y ago
> Most people in crypto are aware of why Tether is bad. In fact a huge portion of stable-coins are handled algorithmically and backed by their network asset. You are building strawmen, likely out of ignorance. haha, I strongly suspect I know much more about this space than your average coiner. Simply because you disagree doesn't make my positions wrong. You haven't actually indicated anything wrong with my position other than your frustration and a few ad hominem attacks. Algorithmic stablecoins are (a) a tiny fraction of the stablecoin space and (b) pegs. Pegs are honey pots for attackers. This is true in classical finance too - and attacking the peg can be extremely lucrative. Just yesterday MIM and UST got knocked off their pegs. I'm led to believe this isn't the first time UST got knocked off its peg and required airdropping hundreds of millions onto it. And knocking the GBP off its peg is how Soros made his money. Fractionally reserved stablecoins that never lose their peg are a perpetual motion machine. [1] [1] https://bennettftomlin.com/2021/07/27/my-second-appearance-on-the-blockchain-debate-podcast-with-sam-kazemian/ https://bennettftomlin.com/2021/07/27/my-second-appearance-o...