7 ms·

As an American, I know I'm miserable because I have realized that I'm going to have to choose between a giant douche and a turd sandwich in all elections for th

As an American, I know I'm miserable because I have realized that I'm going to have to choose between a giant douche and a turd sandwich in all elections for the rest of my life, with any alternatives being disqualified for being a "socialist" or a "conspiracy theorist".

awinter-py 5y ago
I learned that I'd better get used to having to choose between a douche and a turd sandwich because it's usually the choice I'll have
goldenchrome 5y ago
Think of presidents as figure heads. They represent an idea but they don’t have as much power as many think. There’s plenty of other influencing bodies of power in our society and most of them are hidden or at least not democratically elected. As a society we put a lot of emphasis on our politicians because it’s the one body of power that we feel we have any agency over. When you realize that our politicians are relatively insignificant, it’s easier to stop worrying about them. Most people’s influence only extends to their local community anyway, and that’s a good thing to realize. Focus your energy there—on your family, your friends, and your neighbors—and you’re much more likely to feel satisfied.
- colpabar 5y ago
  But isn't that worse? You basically just said that the people we vote for aren't actually the people in charge. How is that supposed to make anyone feel better? And as for the whole "focus on your loved ones" notion, I reject it. I refuse to just give up and let the evil people who run the country do whatever they want with my tax dollars. I'm going to stay mad about it, because it's infuriating.
  - goldenchrome 5y ago
    Go ahead, it’s your life. Perhaps ask yourself how useful your anger has been, versus how much stress it’s brought.
  - gremlinsinc 5y ago
    I thought Bernie was apparently more popular and gonna change things I was naive...lately I've discovered a wealth of anarchist ideas that basically hinge on the idea of creating dual power. Create a co-op, the co-op builds companies that compete w/ brick and mortar companies. Consumers and Employees who use the companies get shares for keeping them going. Those shares are good towards qualifying for healthcare and dividend payments, so you have like 30% towards healthcare, 30% towards growth/salaries, 30% towards dividends... Eventually you buy up hospital/pharmacy businesses and eventually you control the prices that insurers pay while being your own insurer for those who don't have other options but at least spend all their extra money at your Krogers, or Fast food joints, etc.... Essentially a bunch of union/co-op businesses that say FU to the govt we don't need you, we've figured out an alternate way to get healthcare and feed the masses that's self-sustaining. Being worker/democractically owned by the workers and consumers who get to vote on how things change, etc... you can still have inspirational/thought leaders leading the charge but you have people deciding to trust you or not, and you can't just stab them in the back for a buck. Eventually we could be the Medicaid provider for states, and eventually lobby congress to get tax payer dollars to basically be a privatized (albeit partially public) medicare/medicaid alternative that techinically isn't socialized healthcare at the govt level because we're a 3rd party managing it all... or tldr: Do what Kaiser Health does but remove the profit motives and add basically every profitable business you can that average people buy from normally to get people supporting it through their normal economic output. Be nice to eventually also create a total Amazon competitor that really threatens them.
    - jokethrowaway 5y ago
      We definitely agree on the anarchy side. The government is just the biggest around business with a monopoly on violence and stealing. In regards to your idea: How are you going to force employees to take risk and switch from being employees to being self employed? Especially if you're running things not for profit. You can't, unless everyone is as idealistic and non corruptible as you are. This may work for a subset of people but not for society. Pure capitalism is the solution to this problem. Not the crony version we have nowadays with big businesses buying the government and getting them to add regulations to keep newcomers out and tax exemptions - real capitalism: an economic system based on the private ownership and control of the means of production and their operation for profit. I invite you to read http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  > they don’t have as much power as many think. Maybe not regulatory power, but certainly they have the power to stand in front of 330 million citizens and proclaim the election a lie, refuse the kind of peaceful transition we've grown accustomed to, and really degrade the stability of our democracy in the process. However, it is good that we've now learned how much our country relies on everyone acting in good faith. At some point we might be able to translate that into a stronger democracy.
- pm90 5y ago
  They do have the power. Just not the desire to use it in certain ways. This is where lobbyists come in.
- thrwawy283 5y ago
  I think in normal times this is true. Bare with me, this is all disorganized: The last President, and the comments he made, have 3 times lost me over $100k in value from the investments I hold. It's like just waiting to recover from it, and that takes half a year to a year if I'm lucky. I don't sell, I just wait out the dip/depression. It has seriously delayed my ability to buy a house and start the next step of my life. We just saw the stock market dive and I attribute all of it as a delayed penalty to our terrible response to the pandemic and the inflation it caused. I work in emergency management and we waited for a year to begin things like contact tracing because we weren't directed to do it. We have to be explicitly directed by the President. It's purely frustrating that this person who shouldn't have as much direct influence on our lives so directly changed mine. My financial future is another 5 years out. Working so directly for a part of the government that should have helped, and wasn't invited to... well I feel so disgusted with myself. I feel like I let it happen. My grandpa died this last year. He was vaccinated by the government and it's campaign to roll out Pfizer/Johnson/Moderna. We finally convinced him to go get it, and not 2 months later he died anyway (pneumonia from covid). The last 5 years I'd come home, and much of that I'd visit family. From my grandparents i'd hear nothing but conspiracies. How I'm a "deep state actor" trying to destroy America. My grandfather was 1 of the 1st graduates from Texas A&M and a master Electrician. He was a genius once. He died in a warped reality of conspiracy theories. My father is the most wonderful father I have ever known. Compared to other dads I've been sure my whole life I have one of - if not - the best dad in the world. He's my moral compass. My mom taught me to be smart and my dad taught me to be kind. My dad isn't racist. Except we routinely have arguments where I'm trying to tell him how there are modern efforts to rewrite history, and make it palatable for people who come from bad times/lineage. No one in the South wants to reminisce. I argue with my dad that the President is an elected leader, and expected to lead by example while not undermining other parts of the same government. My father shoots back that people have to have "personal responsibility" and think for themselves in regards to things like mask mandates and not ingesting bleach. There was very real harm being done by a very public figure. I remember I kept asking my good dad: Do you blame him for 1 death? It was only after the election of Biden that my father began to see some of the harm from Trump. I tell my dad it's not the same, both parties are not the same. I'm employed in a humanitarian agency and even our budget is being attacked by 1 party who would rather put the individual states at risk. They'll cut our budget to make it impossible to operate, then point to us and say "look, it doesn't work!". My dad says both parties are monsters, and the Democrats were the ones to hold slaves. Republicans ended it. It's still a debate - with my dad - if the civil war was about slavery or "states rights". It's impossible to get him to look at the harm being done right now. What is happening now and who is doing it. This was a disorganized commentary, but I'm so damn tired. Most of my adult life has been spent in wartime. Social services are inching toward something better, but people are dying right now. I have 3 nurses in my family. 2 of them think the vaccines are poison. I was happy to celebrate with the 3rd aunt that hospitals are now required to transparently publish the cost of services and commodities. Another friend of mine has an extreme allergy to nuts. There's now a $35 cap on epipens thanks to the last President. We're making some progress, it's just too slow to help all of us. Everything from social services to education to being overworked to the cost of living to... it's the slowest burn, and there's less oxygen in the room every year. There's too much power in the hands of the perceived figure head.
- marcusverus 5y ago
  > Think of presidents as figure heads. They represent an idea but they don’t have as much power as many think. This is a bad take. The presidential veto is hugely powerful, since a veto can only be overridden if two-thirds of both houses of congress vote to override. Meaning only bills with strong bipartisan support (i.e. the kind that don't get vetoed) can survive a veto. If you don't have the Presidency, you don't pass legislation.
  - klipt 5y ago
    But even with the presidency it seems not much legislating gets done thanks to the senate filibuster.
steelstraw 5y ago
I'm actually feeling like 2024 will be the best shot we've had for a 3rd party candidate. People are really fed up with both parties and always getting roped into voting for the lesser evil. Independents are the largest group by far and growing: https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/4pu9xgkg_ks-tp_mjld5dq.png https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Pro...
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  > People are really fed up with both parties and always getting roped into voting for the lesser evil. This sounds a lot like a ploy to get the other side to try and vote their conscience in the next election, which will keep their tribe from winning the election. I do hear a lot of frustration with the status quo out there, but the very next sentence clarifies that everyone puts 100% of the blame with the other side.
- pm90 5y ago
  The only way for 3rd parties to become a reality is for voting to become much more easier, convenient and fairer. With laws that make it hard to vote, you lose more and more of the public from the political discourse. Fairer systems like Ranked Choice Voting make it even more easy for people to express their preferences without the fear of losing to the least favored party. Without reforms 3rd parties have 0 chance. They are simply used as convenient political tools by either one of the major parties and should be recognized as such.
  - steelstraw 5y ago
    You're probably right. To really break the duopoly we need Ranked Choice and open primaries.
  - Apocryphon 5y ago
    Besides systemic electoral issues stacked against 3rd parties like Duverger's Law thanks to first past the post, there's also a ton of local electoral "mechanical" bureaucratic issues against them like lack of access to federal funding, impossibly strict requirements to get onto ballots, petty regulations like that.
drdec 5y ago
If you want a third party, vote for a third party. Stop wasting your vote on the lesser of two evils.
gremlinsinc 5y ago
I'm so in on 3rd parties... I'll vote green or libertarian rather than democrat if I have a choice. TBF I'm a leftist libertarian, but can't stand the AnCap right libs, but I mean, if I had to choose between them and someone like Manchin or Sinema it's a no brainer... or even Pelosi. I'd definitely support people like Bernie, and AOC but they are far and few between...
jokethrowaway 5y ago
There are third parties. The libertarian party presented one of the best candidates I've ever seen in any election ever in 2020: https://joj2020.com/ https://joj2020.com/ Good luck getting adoption, though. My practical advice is to shop for the least worse country you can find, my friend. There is no point worrying about politics, they're a class above ours and they'll always find a way to do what they want with your money. Why does spending grows every election cycle, whether you have a right or left government? Don't get mad about what you can't control. Treat politics like a hobby; it's surely a great and fun hobby to have. Or get insanely rich and then you'll have a way to influence things. My only hope is that eventually some libertarian ultra-billionaires will be tired enough of our society, flat out buy the government and media of a small country and push it to become a minarchist or an anarchist society. The chance of that happening is really small: when you're really rich you start to see the benefits of the system we live in, so you may want to throw your principles off the window and just focus on what you like doing.

awinter-py 5y ago

I learned that I'd better get used to having to choose between a douche and a turd sandwich because it's usually the choice I'll have

goldenchrome 5y ago

Think of presidents as figure heads. They represent an idea but they don’t have as much power as many think. There’s plenty of other influencing bodies of power in our society and most of them are hidden or at least not democratically elected. As a society we put a lot of emphasis on our politicians because it’s the one body of power that we feel we have any agency over. When you realize that our politicians are relatively insignificant, it’s easier to stop worrying about them. Most people’s influence only extends to their local community anyway, and that’s a good thing to realize. Focus your energy there—on your family, your friends, and your neighbors—and you’re much more likely to feel satisfied.

colpabar 5y ago
But isn't that worse? You basically just said that the people we vote for aren't actually the people in charge. How is that supposed to make anyone feel better? And as for the whole "focus on your loved ones" notion, I reject it. I refuse to just give up and let the evil people who run the country do whatever they want with my tax dollars. I'm going to stay mad about it, because it's infuriating.
- goldenchrome 5y ago
  Go ahead, it’s your life. Perhaps ask yourself how useful your anger has been, versus how much stress it’s brought.
- gremlinsinc 5y ago
  I thought Bernie was apparently more popular and gonna change things I was naive...lately I've discovered a wealth of anarchist ideas that basically hinge on the idea of creating dual power. Create a co-op, the co-op builds companies that compete w/ brick and mortar companies. Consumers and Employees who use the companies get shares for keeping them going. Those shares are good towards qualifying for healthcare and dividend payments, so you have like 30% towards healthcare, 30% towards growth/salaries, 30% towards dividends... Eventually you buy up hospital/pharmacy businesses and eventually you control the prices that insurers pay while being your own insurer for those who don't have other options but at least spend all their extra money at your Krogers, or Fast food joints, etc.... Essentially a bunch of union/co-op businesses that say FU to the govt we don't need you, we've figured out an alternate way to get healthcare and feed the masses that's self-sustaining. Being worker/democractically owned by the workers and consumers who get to vote on how things change, etc... you can still have inspirational/thought leaders leading the charge but you have people deciding to trust you or not, and you can't just stab them in the back for a buck. Eventually we could be the Medicaid provider for states, and eventually lobby congress to get tax payer dollars to basically be a privatized (albeit partially public) medicare/medicaid alternative that techinically isn't socialized healthcare at the govt level because we're a 3rd party managing it all... or tldr: Do what Kaiser Health does but remove the profit motives and add basically every profitable business you can that average people buy from normally to get people supporting it through their normal economic output. Be nice to eventually also create a total Amazon competitor that really threatens them.
  - jokethrowaway 5y ago
    We definitely agree on the anarchy side. The government is just the biggest around business with a monopoly on violence and stealing. In regards to your idea: How are you going to force employees to take risk and switch from being employees to being self employed? Especially if you're running things not for profit. You can't, unless everyone is as idealistic and non corruptible as you are. This may work for a subset of people but not for society. Pure capitalism is the solution to this problem. Not the crony version we have nowadays with big businesses buying the government and getting them to add regulations to keep newcomers out and tax exemptions - real capitalism: an economic system based on the private ownership and control of the means of production and their operation for profit. I invite you to read http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf
rootusrootus 5y ago
> they don’t have as much power as many think. Maybe not regulatory power, but certainly they have the power to stand in front of 330 million citizens and proclaim the election a lie, refuse the kind of peaceful transition we've grown accustomed to, and really degrade the stability of our democracy in the process. However, it is good that we've now learned how much our country relies on everyone acting in good faith. At some point we might be able to translate that into a stronger democracy.
pm90 5y ago
They do have the power. Just not the desire to use it in certain ways. This is where lobbyists come in.
thrwawy283 5y ago
I think in normal times this is true. Bare with me, this is all disorganized: The last President, and the comments he made, have 3 times lost me over $100k in value from the investments I hold. It's like just waiting to recover from it, and that takes half a year to a year if I'm lucky. I don't sell, I just wait out the dip/depression. It has seriously delayed my ability to buy a house and start the next step of my life. We just saw the stock market dive and I attribute all of it as a delayed penalty to our terrible response to the pandemic and the inflation it caused. I work in emergency management and we waited for a year to begin things like contact tracing because we weren't directed to do it. We have to be explicitly directed by the President. It's purely frustrating that this person who shouldn't have as much direct influence on our lives so directly changed mine. My financial future is another 5 years out. Working so directly for a part of the government that should have helped, and wasn't invited to... well I feel so disgusted with myself. I feel like I let it happen. My grandpa died this last year. He was vaccinated by the government and it's campaign to roll out Pfizer/Johnson/Moderna. We finally convinced him to go get it, and not 2 months later he died anyway (pneumonia from covid). The last 5 years I'd come home, and much of that I'd visit family. From my grandparents i'd hear nothing but conspiracies. How I'm a "deep state actor" trying to destroy America. My grandfather was 1 of the 1st graduates from Texas A&M and a master Electrician. He was a genius once. He died in a warped reality of conspiracy theories. My father is the most wonderful father I have ever known. Compared to other dads I've been sure my whole life I have one of - if not - the best dad in the world. He's my moral compass. My mom taught me to be smart and my dad taught me to be kind. My dad isn't racist. Except we routinely have arguments where I'm trying to tell him how there are modern efforts to rewrite history, and make it palatable for people who come from bad times/lineage. No one in the South wants to reminisce. I argue with my dad that the President is an elected leader, and expected to lead by example while not undermining other parts of the same government. My father shoots back that people have to have "personal responsibility" and think for themselves in regards to things like mask mandates and not ingesting bleach. There was very real harm being done by a very public figure. I remember I kept asking my good dad: Do you blame him for 1 death? It was only after the election of Biden that my father began to see some of the harm from Trump. I tell my dad it's not the same, both parties are not the same. I'm employed in a humanitarian agency and even our budget is being attacked by 1 party who would rather put the individual states at risk. They'll cut our budget to make it impossible to operate, then point to us and say "look, it doesn't work!". My dad says both parties are monsters, and the Democrats were the ones to hold slaves. Republicans ended it. It's still a debate - with my dad - if the civil war was about slavery or "states rights". It's impossible to get him to look at the harm being done right now. What is happening now and who is doing it. This was a disorganized commentary, but I'm so damn tired. Most of my adult life has been spent in wartime. Social services are inching toward something better, but people are dying right now. I have 3 nurses in my family. 2 of them think the vaccines are poison. I was happy to celebrate with the 3rd aunt that hospitals are now required to transparently publish the cost of services and commodities. Another friend of mine has an extreme allergy to nuts. There's now a $35 cap on epipens thanks to the last President. We're making some progress, it's just too slow to help all of us. Everything from social services to education to being overworked to the cost of living to... it's the slowest burn, and there's less oxygen in the room every year. There's too much power in the hands of the perceived figure head.
marcusverus 5y ago
> Think of presidents as figure heads. They represent an idea but they don’t have as much power as many think. This is a bad take. The presidential veto is hugely powerful, since a veto can only be overridden if two-thirds of both houses of congress vote to override. Meaning only bills with strong bipartisan support (i.e. the kind that don't get vetoed) can survive a veto. If you don't have the Presidency, you don't pass legislation.
- klipt 5y ago
  But even with the presidency it seems not much legislating gets done thanks to the senate filibuster.

steelstraw 5y ago

I'm actually feeling like 2024 will be the best shot we've had for a 3rd party candidate. People are really fed up with both parties and always getting roped into voting for the lesser evil. Independents are the largest group by far and growing: https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/4pu9xgkg_ks-tp_mjld5dq.png https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Pro...

rootusrootus 5y ago
> People are really fed up with both parties and always getting roped into voting for the lesser evil. This sounds a lot like a ploy to get the other side to try and vote their conscience in the next election, which will keep their tribe from winning the election. I do hear a lot of frustration with the status quo out there, but the very next sentence clarifies that everyone puts 100% of the blame with the other side.
pm90 5y ago
The only way for 3rd parties to become a reality is for voting to become much more easier, convenient and fairer. With laws that make it hard to vote, you lose more and more of the public from the political discourse. Fairer systems like Ranked Choice Voting make it even more easy for people to express their preferences without the fear of losing to the least favored party. Without reforms 3rd parties have 0 chance. They are simply used as convenient political tools by either one of the major parties and should be recognized as such.
- steelstraw 5y ago
  You're probably right. To really break the duopoly we need Ranked Choice and open primaries.
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  Besides systemic electoral issues stacked against 3rd parties like Duverger's Law thanks to first past the post, there's also a ton of local electoral "mechanical" bureaucratic issues against them like lack of access to federal funding, impossibly strict requirements to get onto ballots, petty regulations like that.

drdec 5y ago

If you want a third party, vote for a third party. Stop wasting your vote on the lesser of two evils.

gremlinsinc 5y ago

I'm so in on 3rd parties... I'll vote green or libertarian rather than democrat if I have a choice. TBF I'm a leftist libertarian, but can't stand the AnCap right libs, but I mean, if I had to choose between them and someone like Manchin or Sinema it's a no brainer... or even Pelosi. I'd definitely support people like Bernie, and AOC but they are far and few between...

jokethrowaway 5y ago

There are third parties. The libertarian party presented one of the best candidates I've ever seen in any election ever in 2020: https://joj2020.com/ https://joj2020.com/ Good luck getting adoption, though. My practical advice is to shop for the least worse country you can find, my friend. There is no point worrying about politics, they're a class above ours and they'll always find a way to do what they want with your money. Why does spending grows every election cycle, whether you have a right or left government? Don't get mad about what you can't control. Treat politics like a hobby; it's surely a great and fun hobby to have. Or get insanely rich and then you'll have a way to influence things. My only hope is that eventually some libertarian ultra-billionaires will be tired enough of our society, flat out buy the government and media of a small country and push it to become a minarchist or an anarchist society. The chance of that happening is really small: when you're really rich you start to see the benefits of the system we live in, so you may want to throw your principles off the window and just focus on what you like doing.