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I’ve always thought it strange that most Linux distributions and other *nixes don’t put up barriers between not only system and userland, but also between “esse

I’ve always thought it strange that most Linux distributions and other *nixes don’t put up barriers between not only system and userland, but also between “essential” userland (i.e. DEs) and other user-installed packages. The lack of separation seems like a setup for failure and complicates package manager design considerably.

AceJohnny2 5y ago
Can you come up with a solid definition to separate "essential" userland from other user-installed packages? You cite DEs as essential, but maybe I want to be using my own Enlightenment install rather than whatever the system has installed (true story!)
- kitsunesoba 5y ago
  Well I mean, there’s no reason why the user shouldn’t be able to control what’s installed as essential userland. It just needs to be managed entirely separately from the system and “normal” userland. It could be as simple as a flag on apt, dnf, etc.
  - sneak 5y ago
    This is the reason I really, really love Nix. I have been fighting this same battle for years and Nix finally fixed it.
- zacmps 5y ago
  You can always build escape hatches for that kind of use case. Some more stringent separation between essential and installed components could have prevented Linus removing his DE.
- pdimitar 5y ago
  I'd define it as "never have zero packages that provide a DE". This could be a global setting in the package manager which you would be able to set to `false` if so desired.
neurostimulant 5y ago
This is where the excitements of using linux for day to day tasks come from, right? Install Steam and suddenly your DE got uninstalled [1], for example. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxmemes/comments/qhjhf2/linus_trying_to_install_steam/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxmemes/comments/qhjhf2/linus_tr...
stjohnswarts 5y ago
But it really isn't. I never have problems in linux with python apps that are prepackaged by the distro. It's up to you to keep that separate if you install your own apps that require python. You really can't blame it on distro maintainers as they are really doing just fine with it. What happens is people won't take the time to understand what they're running instead of randomly typing a CLI or clicking on the app icon. Linux doesn't hold your hand (and really it can't! there are simply too many possible combinations) unless you use what comes with the distro.
- rbanffy 5y ago
  > unless you use what comes with the distro. And, even then, it's not the best choice for users that need hand-holding.
McP 5y ago
What's a DE?
- wheelerof4te 5y ago
  Short for Desktop Environment. You can choose yours in Linux.

AceJohnny2 5y ago

Can you come up with a solid definition to separate "essential" userland from other user-installed packages? You cite DEs as essential, but maybe I want to be using my own Enlightenment install rather than whatever the system has installed (true story!)

kitsunesoba 5y ago
Well I mean, there’s no reason why the user shouldn’t be able to control what’s installed as essential userland. It just needs to be managed entirely separately from the system and “normal” userland. It could be as simple as a flag on apt, dnf, etc.
- sneak 5y ago
  This is the reason I really, really love Nix. I have been fighting this same battle for years and Nix finally fixed it.
zacmps 5y ago
You can always build escape hatches for that kind of use case. Some more stringent separation between essential and installed components could have prevented Linus removing his DE.
pdimitar 5y ago
I'd define it as "never have zero packages that provide a DE". This could be a global setting in the package manager which you would be able to set to `false` if so desired.

neurostimulant 5y ago

This is where the excitements of using linux for day to day tasks come from, right? Install Steam and suddenly your DE got uninstalled [1], for example. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxmemes/comments/qhjhf2/linus_trying_to_install_steam/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxmemes/comments/qhjhf2/linus_tr...

stjohnswarts 5y ago

But it really isn't. I never have problems in linux with python apps that are prepackaged by the distro. It's up to you to keep that separate if you install your own apps that require python. You really can't blame it on distro maintainers as they are really doing just fine with it. What happens is people won't take the time to understand what they're running instead of randomly typing a CLI or clicking on the app icon. Linux doesn't hold your hand (and really it can't! there are simply too many possible combinations) unless you use what comes with the distro.

rbanffy 5y ago
> unless you use what comes with the distro. And, even then, it's not the best choice for users that need hand-holding.

McP 5y ago

What's a DE?

wheelerof4te 5y ago
Short for Desktop Environment. You can choose yours in Linux.