11 ms·

I think Element (https://element.io/ https://element.io/) is worth looking at for anyone who wants something decentralized. Unfortunately I have exactly 1 conta

I think Element (https://element.io/ https://element.io/) is worth looking at for anyone who wants something decentralized. Unfortunately I have exactly 1 contact who uses it, but that was true of Signal as well 8 years ago

quadrangle 5y ago
For clarity, Element is merely a client (the main one) for Matrix.org. What matters is whether people are on Matrix rather than whether they use the Element client. But most Matrix users surely do use Element.
- btdmaster 5y ago
  matrix.org is just one instance, it is very important that people choose different instances so that interoperability is kept.
  - feanaro 5y ago
    I think the poster was referring to the protocol instead of the instance.
    - pooper 5y ago
      Maybe this was a case of user error but I know I was not the only person who had difficulty joining Mozilla's riot with their existing riot username when Mozilla first opened their server.
jokowueu 5y ago
The usability and UI after all these years are just terrible Spaces was implemented but again the UI is just terrible Other clients are better as an im like fluffy chat tho
- feanaro 5y ago
  "Just terrible" isn't very constructive criticism. I think it has improved and continues to improve significantly.
  - kaladin-jasnah 5y ago
    It has improved tremendously, but it's still nowhere on par with solutions such as Telegram or Discord. As much as I like Matrix, the clients (which I think is where the UX lies for me, as I think it's expected that it takes effort to set up a homeserver), are horrible.
    - feanaro 5y ago
      I use both Discord and Element and vastly prefer Element, so it's hard to relate without specifics.
    - feanaro 5y ago
      I can accept that. But in order to improve, we have to get specific about what it is that is lacking compared to e.g. Discord.
    - Tmpod 5y ago
      Have you seen Cinny?[1] It's a very Discord-like client that I'd honestly the best I've used thus far. I instantly switched to it as mt daily driver on the computer and even made a donation to help out the maintainers. The thing I miss the most is localization, but I get it's not a big priority. I just like translating things, seeing how that can help people. [1]: https://cinny.in https://cinny.in
      - kaladin-jasnah 5y ago
        I'm using it right now and it's the best on I've found. But it doesn't support the up-arrow-to-edit feature, which drives me crazy. There's an open issue for it, so I'm hoping it gets resolved (or I might try to do it myself somehow). Other than that, Cinny doesn't address the problem of Element on mobile not working very well. FluffyChat's UI isn't very nice either.
NetOpWibby 5y ago
I used to use Wire and then I got my friends to use Element. It’s been working great so far. I just wish it had support for emoji skintones in responses.
- lightspot21 5y ago
  Not my intent to offend anyone and plus I'm not American so I might not know your culture well enough, but please don't. Why should we insert race in technology when 1) it's not useful and 2) it's not relevant at all. I mean, who even cares whether the smiley face is white or black or whatever else? It's just a smiley face. IMHO there are more significant areas to care for.
  - gibolt 5y ago
    Why give the option for gender selection or character customization in video games? People care about seeing themselves represented. It doesn't hurt anyone to have options (other than those who have to wade through supporting unicode standards)
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - lucgommans 5y ago
    > who even cares whether the smiley face is white or black or whatever else? If it doesn't matter, why not let people choose whatever they like? Personally I'm also wondering if having specifically white and specifically black thumbs-ups does not introduce more racial bias rather than the generic yellow default that I was used to, but I did notice people of color using specific colors so perhaps it does matter, at least for some of them. The rest of us can just be on (the afaik neutral) yellow, presuming that makes everyone happy.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - R0b0t1 5y ago
ncmncm 5y ago
Some current problems with Element, and with the Matrix protocol in general (there are a bunch of other clients, e.g Nheko, Fluffychat) include that you need a "homeserver" to store all your messages, and (1) there is no way to migrate to another homeserver (I gave up on Matrix after the third one went bust), (2) the homeserver has (!) plaintext access to all traffic on it, besides all the delicious metadata the spooks love and that (e.g.) Signal hands over to them with effusive eagerness, (3) there is no concept of identity independent of a homeserver, and (4) no effort at all to obscure metadata, who you communicate with and when. I don't know of any clients that let you manage separate identities at the same time, as many mail clients do. (I was running Element and Fluffy to manage two accounts, which is stupid. Maybe some do handle multiple accounts, now?) Matrix defines a sort of end-to-end encryption, but the ends are homeservers and clients. [Some people are saying not: that homeservers don't see plaintext of E2EE traffic.] There is talk about self-hosting in the client, but I don't know if it works yet, or ever will. Lack of encryption-at-rest, wherever it is that messages live, seems like a stupendous implementation design flaw, and makes me question all the project's other choices. If, in fact, messages are, or can now be, stored securely, I would welcome correction. Likewise, if client-side hosting works now, or message-store migration, or a stable address despite such a migration, or any effort at securing metadata. I have not kept up since abandoning Matrix, but still want a viable alternative to Signal. The Matrix protocol is extremely complex and getting more complex with great speed as they try to get to feature parity with Facebook and Twitter, making it hard to believe one will ever be able to trust it, E2EE or no. Will we need to start all over again? A rigidly layered system, with a provably secure basis, probably in a single, sandboxed server talked to by all clients and gateways, with services built on top, seems needed if we want both security and features. As it is, it seems like clients -- i.e. application services -- run in the same address space with what should be secure message transport, necessarily compromising all security with each bug added.
- kitkat_new 5y ago
  > (1) there is no way to migrate to another homeserver (I gave up on Matrix after the third one went bust) partially true - while there isn't a protocol defined way, you can invite your new account to your rooms, import your encryption keys and leave the rooms with the old accounts > (2) the homeserver has (!) plaintext access to all traffic on it hmm, isn't that unavoidable? > (4) no effort at all to obscure metadata, who you communicate with and when. There is effort on it, e.g. by going P2P and eliminating dedicated homeservers > I don't know of any clients that let you manage separate identities at the same time FluffyChat, Syphon, and others I don't know the names by heart > Matrix defines a sort of end-to-end encryption, but the ends are homeservers and clients. The ends are the sessions in a room. The homserver is not an end. How did you get that impression? > Lack of encryption-at-rest, wherever it is that messages live, seems like a stupendous implementation design flaw, and makes me question all the project's other choices. Isn't encryption at rest usually done by the operating system?
tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
Element on Android still doesn't support searching in encrypted rooms. The UX is years behind Signal and I'm not sure if they're catching up.
- tentacleuno 5y ago
  I can't actually use the Element app on mobile, because it takes like 15 minutes to "sync" (whatever that means on a 70Mb/s line).
aero-glide2 5y ago
The default server is absolutely terribly slow. Do not use this for important messages.
nichos 5y ago
Someone should make a HN channel.
daypay 5y ago
Session (https://getsession.org/ https://getsession.org/) is also worth looking into. Recently our group moved from Signal to here.

quadrangle 5y ago

For clarity, Element is merely a client (the main one) for Matrix.org. What matters is whether people are on Matrix rather than whether they use the Element client. But most Matrix users surely do use Element.

btdmaster 5y ago
matrix.org is just one instance, it is very important that people choose different instances so that interoperability is kept.
- feanaro 5y ago
  I think the poster was referring to the protocol instead of the instance.
  - pooper 5y ago
    Maybe this was a case of user error but I know I was not the only person who had difficulty joining Mozilla's riot with their existing riot username when Mozilla first opened their server.

jokowueu 5y ago

The usability and UI after all these years are just terrible Spaces was implemented but again the UI is just terrible Other clients are better as an im like fluffy chat tho

feanaro 5y ago
"Just terrible" isn't very constructive criticism. I think it has improved and continues to improve significantly.
- kaladin-jasnah 5y ago
  It has improved tremendously, but it's still nowhere on par with solutions such as Telegram or Discord. As much as I like Matrix, the clients (which I think is where the UX lies for me, as I think it's expected that it takes effort to set up a homeserver), are horrible.
  - feanaro 5y ago
    I use both Discord and Element and vastly prefer Element, so it's hard to relate without specifics.
  - feanaro 5y ago
    I can accept that. But in order to improve, we have to get specific about what it is that is lacking compared to e.g. Discord.
  - Tmpod 5y ago
    Have you seen Cinny?[1] It's a very Discord-like client that I'd honestly the best I've used thus far. I instantly switched to it as mt daily driver on the computer and even made a donation to help out the maintainers. The thing I miss the most is localization, but I get it's not a big priority. I just like translating things, seeing how that can help people. [1]: https://cinny.in https://cinny.in
    - kaladin-jasnah 5y ago
      I'm using it right now and it's the best on I've found. But it doesn't support the up-arrow-to-edit feature, which drives me crazy. There's an open issue for it, so I'm hoping it gets resolved (or I might try to do it myself somehow). Other than that, Cinny doesn't address the problem of Element on mobile not working very well. FluffyChat's UI isn't very nice either.

NetOpWibby 5y ago

I used to use Wire and then I got my friends to use Element. It’s been working great so far. I just wish it had support for emoji skintones in responses.

lightspot21 5y ago
Not my intent to offend anyone and plus I'm not American so I might not know your culture well enough, but please don't. Why should we insert race in technology when 1) it's not useful and 2) it's not relevant at all. I mean, who even cares whether the smiley face is white or black or whatever else? It's just a smiley face. IMHO there are more significant areas to care for.
- gibolt 5y ago
  Why give the option for gender selection or character customization in video games? People care about seeing themselves represented. It doesn't hurt anyone to have options (other than those who have to wade through supporting unicode standards)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- lucgommans 5y ago
  > who even cares whether the smiley face is white or black or whatever else? If it doesn't matter, why not let people choose whatever they like? Personally I'm also wondering if having specifically white and specifically black thumbs-ups does not introduce more racial bias rather than the generic yellow default that I was used to, but I did notice people of color using specific colors so perhaps it does matter, at least for some of them. The rest of us can just be on (the afaik neutral) yellow, presuming that makes everyone happy.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- R0b0t1 5y ago

ncmncm 5y ago

Some current problems with Element, and with the Matrix protocol in general (there are a bunch of other clients, e.g Nheko, Fluffychat) include that you need a "homeserver" to store all your messages, and (1) there is no way to migrate to another homeserver (I gave up on Matrix after the third one went bust), (2) the homeserver has (!) plaintext access to all traffic on it, besides all the delicious metadata the spooks love and that (e.g.) Signal hands over to them with effusive eagerness, (3) there is no concept of identity independent of a homeserver, and (4) no effort at all to obscure metadata, who you communicate with and when. I don't know of any clients that let you manage separate identities at the same time, as many mail clients do. (I was running Element and Fluffy to manage two accounts, which is stupid. Maybe some do handle multiple accounts, now?) Matrix defines a sort of end-to-end encryption, but the ends are homeservers and clients. [Some people are saying not: that homeservers don't see plaintext of E2EE traffic.] There is talk about self-hosting in the client, but I don't know if it works yet, or ever will. Lack of encryption-at-rest, wherever it is that messages live, seems like a stupendous implementation design flaw, and makes me question all the project's other choices. If, in fact, messages are, or can now be, stored securely, I would welcome correction. Likewise, if client-side hosting works now, or message-store migration, or a stable address despite such a migration, or any effort at securing metadata. I have not kept up since abandoning Matrix, but still want a viable alternative to Signal. The Matrix protocol is extremely complex and getting more complex with great speed as they try to get to feature parity with Facebook and Twitter, making it hard to believe one will ever be able to trust it, E2EE or no. Will we need to start all over again? A rigidly layered system, with a provably secure basis, probably in a single, sandboxed server talked to by all clients and gateways, with services built on top, seems needed if we want both security and features. As it is, it seems like clients -- i.e. application services -- run in the same address space with what should be secure message transport, necessarily compromising all security with each bug added.

kitkat_new 5y ago
> (1) there is no way to migrate to another homeserver (I gave up on Matrix after the third one went bust) partially true - while there isn't a protocol defined way, you can invite your new account to your rooms, import your encryption keys and leave the rooms with the old accounts > (2) the homeserver has (!) plaintext access to all traffic on it hmm, isn't that unavoidable? > (4) no effort at all to obscure metadata, who you communicate with and when. There is effort on it, e.g. by going P2P and eliminating dedicated homeservers > I don't know of any clients that let you manage separate identities at the same time FluffyChat, Syphon, and others I don't know the names by heart > Matrix defines a sort of end-to-end encryption, but the ends are homeservers and clients. The ends are the sessions in a room. The homserver is not an end. How did you get that impression? > Lack of encryption-at-rest, wherever it is that messages live, seems like a stupendous implementation design flaw, and makes me question all the project's other choices. Isn't encryption at rest usually done by the operating system?

tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago

Element on Android still doesn't support searching in encrypted rooms. The UX is years behind Signal and I'm not sure if they're catching up.

tentacleuno 5y ago
I can't actually use the Element app on mobile, because it takes like 15 minutes to "sync" (whatever that means on a 70Mb/s line).

aero-glide2 5y ago

The default server is absolutely terribly slow. Do not use this for important messages.

nichos 5y ago

Someone should make a HN channel.

daypay 5y ago

Session (https://getsession.org/ https://getsession.org/) is also worth looking into. Recently our group moved from Signal to here.