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I fully agree with removing Python from OSes, but I don't know that it's reasonable for the average user to manage their own versions (I wish I didn't have to m

I fully agree with removing Python from OSes, but I don't know that it's reasonable for the average user to manage their own versions (I wish I didn't have to manage my own versions and I've been developing in Python for the last 15 years). The alternative is to ship the runtime, stdlib, and dependencies with each application, but that seems pretty sucky for an interpreted language and especially one that leans so hard on random native extensions (I've seen relatively simple applications pull in 250MB of dependencies in a compressed tarball, never mind runtime and stdlib). Really I don't think Python (and probably other interpreted languages) is a very well suited for developing end-user applications--although some people have fewer scruples than me about wasting user resources.

pdimitar 5y ago
Please rest assured that this is not a flamey / troll comment, it's just that your first paragraph to me sounds like "Python is just not worth the trouble" which you kind of allude to in your second paragraph after. I mean, at what point should we start asking ourselves fundamental questions like "what is so heavenly about Python that we have to carry it everywhere and ensure its installation on every possible platform"? Example #1: I know a guy who regularly writes scripts in OCaml and laughs at everybody else, saying he gets static types and mega-fast binaries (faster than Golang and slower than Rust) and a very terse syntax (he says it's often as short or shorter than bash even). Example #2: I recently finally had enough of bash/zsh scripting weirdness for a few tasks I wanted done on my home server so I just learned enough Lua for an hour to make a fairly decent script that did exactly what I expected immediately after I understood a few of Lua's quirks (which are at least consistent and easy to remember, unlike the endless escaping and quoting rules of the scripting shells). Example #3: I know a few people using a Rust library/tool that makes scripting with it much easier and almost painless. They swear by it. -- I am not even mad at Python for potentially putting hundreds of megabytes or gigabytes of baggage on people's machines -- if we start having each app carry its own Python runtime. Meh. Many people would never care (me included). I do get ticked off by it being everywhere however; especially having in mind what an awful language for long-term projects it is (said to me by at least 5x senior Python devs at 40+ of age). And how often it messes up with other work you do on your computer, too -- which is the cherry on the cake and has been guilty of tons of broken Debian system-wide upgrades (among many others). I wish people stopped getting tempted by "easy to start with" languages and just start seeing the forest and not only the trees... :(
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  I generally agree. I don’t think Python is even “easy to start with” these days. I think it got that reputation in the early 00s, but since then the competition has surpassed it. Languages like Go are arguably easier to use and getting a basic project up and running and sharing it with others is far easier than with Python. If you really care about a scripting workflow, it’s as easy to do ‘go run main.go’ as it is to do ‘python main.py’ for projects without dependencies and for projects with dependencies it’s a lot easier to just do ‘go run main.go’ than configuring a venv and installing your dependencies and then running ‘python main.py’. Nit: Ocaml is about on par with Go. Some programs will be faster and others will be slower, but OCaml is very much in the same performance tier as Go, Java, and C# (benchmark game prohibits idiomatic Go code for certain benchmarks so it appears artificially slow).
  - igouy 5y ago
    Please show that Go is being made to appear artificially slow, as you claim.
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      It’s not allowed to preallocate memory in certain benchmarks, so it has to do allocations in a tight loop. Go’s allocations are more expensive by design because idiomatic Go doesn’t create as much garbage as other GC languages. If you’re here for a language slap fight, you’ll have to find someone else to talk to. EDIT: good grief, the overwhelming majority of your recent comments are “debates” about the benchmark game. Do you have an alert for references to this phrase or something?
      - igouy 5y ago
        throwaway894345 5y ago
        Well tossaway’s account was created 66 days ago so clearly not, and anyway I’m not going to be baited into your holy war.

pdimitar 5y ago

Please rest assured that this is not a flamey / troll comment, it's just that your first paragraph to me sounds like "Python is just not worth the trouble" which you kind of allude to in your second paragraph after. I mean, at what point should we start asking ourselves fundamental questions like "what is so heavenly about Python that we have to carry it everywhere and ensure its installation on every possible platform"? Example #1: I know a guy who regularly writes scripts in OCaml and laughs at everybody else, saying he gets static types and mega-fast binaries (faster than Golang and slower than Rust) and a very terse syntax (he says it's often as short or shorter than bash even). Example #2: I recently finally had enough of bash/zsh scripting weirdness for a few tasks I wanted done on my home server so I just learned enough Lua for an hour to make a fairly decent script that did exactly what I expected immediately after I understood a few of Lua's quirks (which are at least consistent and easy to remember, unlike the endless escaping and quoting rules of the scripting shells). Example #3: I know a few people using a Rust library/tool that makes scripting with it much easier and almost painless. They swear by it. -- I am not even mad at Python for potentially putting hundreds of megabytes or gigabytes of baggage on people's machines -- if we start having each app carry its own Python runtime. Meh. Many people would never care (me included). I do get ticked off by it being everywhere however; especially having in mind what an awful language for long-term projects it is (said to me by at least 5x senior Python devs at 40+ of age). And how often it messes up with other work you do on your computer, too -- which is the cherry on the cake and has been guilty of tons of broken Debian system-wide upgrades (among many others). I wish people stopped getting tempted by "easy to start with" languages and just start seeing the forest and not only the trees... :(

throwaway894345 5y ago
I generally agree. I don’t think Python is even “easy to start with” these days. I think it got that reputation in the early 00s, but since then the competition has surpassed it. Languages like Go are arguably easier to use and getting a basic project up and running and sharing it with others is far easier than with Python. If you really care about a scripting workflow, it’s as easy to do ‘go run main.go’ as it is to do ‘python main.py’ for projects without dependencies and for projects with dependencies it’s a lot easier to just do ‘go run main.go’ than configuring a venv and installing your dependencies and then running ‘python main.py’. Nit: Ocaml is about on par with Go. Some programs will be faster and others will be slower, but OCaml is very much in the same performance tier as Go, Java, and C# (benchmark game prohibits idiomatic Go code for certain benchmarks so it appears artificially slow).
- igouy 5y ago
  Please show that Go is being made to appear artificially slow, as you claim.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    It’s not allowed to preallocate memory in certain benchmarks, so it has to do allocations in a tight loop. Go’s allocations are more expensive by design because idiomatic Go doesn’t create as much garbage as other GC languages. If you’re here for a language slap fight, you’ll have to find someone else to talk to. EDIT: good grief, the overwhelming majority of your recent comments are “debates” about the benchmark game. Do you have an alert for references to this phrase or something?
    - igouy 5y ago
      - throwaway894345 5y ago
        Well tossaway’s account was created 66 days ago so clearly not, and anyway I’m not going to be baited into your holy war.