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Objectively speaking (I think both 'sides' are equally confused): * People losing their careers over reactionary views/speech * Historical monuments/names bei

Objectively speaking (I think both 'sides' are equally confused): * People losing their careers over reactionary views/speech * Historical monuments/names being destroyed (mostly relating to CSA/overt racism) * Record levels of distrust. Anyone could be a Trumpist or "far left radical", so keep your distance. * Large organizations are installing ideological offices to keep reactionary behavior in check, some going as far as "struggle sessions" (mandatory trainings) * Political violence (not too severe yet) It's not quite as extreme as the Chinese Cultural Revolution, but the parallels are certainly there and I hope it doesn't intensify.

deleted 5y ago
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kragen 5y ago
Also, apropos of this case: * major paranoia about foreign subversion (with, in both cases, some justification, but self-defeating and grossly disproportionate responses) * persecution specifically directed at intellectuals
KerrAvon 5y ago
How you can be "objective," live through the past twenty years, and wind up thinking "both sides" are equally problematic/at fault for the current situation? Maybe a little history will help? America has been prone to succumb to demagoguery for a long time. Here's a novel from 1935 that you should be familiar with: https://www.amazon.com/Cant-Happen-Here-Sinclair-Lewis/dp/1974087301 https://www.amazon.com/Cant-Happen-Here-Sinclair-Lewis/dp/19... The reason it's finally happening now is that the 60-year old conservative project to remake America in the image of the John Birch Society and other right-wing nuts has borne incredible fruit. Essentially, they decided the end justifies the means and are now being consumed by the means. Here's a quick sampler of stuff to start reading up on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_News https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_News https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newt_Gingrich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newt_Gingrich https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/474662-the-myth-of-the-conservative-bestseller https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/474662-the-myth-of-t...
- the_doctah 5y ago
  You provided a perfect example without realizing it, it just wasn't contained in the links you provided.
  - welshwelsh 5y ago
    But he's correct. That's the part you're missing. If he was wrong, that would be completely different. You're focusing on the appearance of the rhetoric, when you should be attempting to determine the truth of the points presented (i.e. which party is correct). Sometimes- more often than not, I would even say- there is at least one political faction in a society that is completely batshit crazy. It's never both/all sides. But it can look that way, because whatever accusations are thrown at one side, even if true, are returned with the exact same rhetoric, even if false. For example you see this in domestic violence court proceedings. Usually, the abuser will accuse the victim of being the real abuser and accuse them of all sorts of things, some of which might even be true (such as hitting an attacker in self defense). This is surprisingly effective, and often times people will side with the abuser or conclude that both parties are part of the problem. But that doesn't change the fact that there is ONE abuser (usually the party with a power advantage) against whom the accusations are justified, and the other party who is comparatively innocent. Even though they accuse each other of the exact same thing and their behavior looks identical from a distance.
- pphysch 5y ago
  USA was created in the wake of perhaps the largest ethnic cleansing in human history (virtual entirety of the North American continent) and has been at war for >90% of its history. It has always been deeply racist (whether overt like KKK lynchings or subtle like census reporting and tokenism). Whatever these rightoids are allegedly plotting, you can't say they are "remaking" America into something radically new.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - the_doctah 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

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kragen 5y ago

Also, apropos of this case: * major paranoia about foreign subversion (with, in both cases, some justification, but self-defeating and grossly disproportionate responses) * persecution specifically directed at intellectuals

KerrAvon 5y ago

How you can be "objective," live through the past twenty years, and wind up thinking "both sides" are equally problematic/at fault for the current situation? Maybe a little history will help? America has been prone to succumb to demagoguery for a long time. Here's a novel from 1935 that you should be familiar with: https://www.amazon.com/Cant-Happen-Here-Sinclair-Lewis/dp/1974087301 https://www.amazon.com/Cant-Happen-Here-Sinclair-Lewis/dp/19... The reason it's finally happening now is that the 60-year old conservative project to remake America in the image of the John Birch Society and other right-wing nuts has borne incredible fruit. Essentially, they decided the end justifies the means and are now being consumed by the means. Here's a quick sampler of stuff to start reading up on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_News https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_News https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newt_Gingrich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newt_Gingrich https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/474662-the-myth-of-the-conservative-bestseller https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/474662-the-myth-of-t...

the_doctah 5y ago
You provided a perfect example without realizing it, it just wasn't contained in the links you provided.
- welshwelsh 5y ago
  But he's correct. That's the part you're missing. If he was wrong, that would be completely different. You're focusing on the appearance of the rhetoric, when you should be attempting to determine the truth of the points presented (i.e. which party is correct). Sometimes- more often than not, I would even say- there is at least one political faction in a society that is completely batshit crazy. It's never both/all sides. But it can look that way, because whatever accusations are thrown at one side, even if true, are returned with the exact same rhetoric, even if false. For example you see this in domestic violence court proceedings. Usually, the abuser will accuse the victim of being the real abuser and accuse them of all sorts of things, some of which might even be true (such as hitting an attacker in self defense). This is surprisingly effective, and often times people will side with the abuser or conclude that both parties are part of the problem. But that doesn't change the fact that there is ONE abuser (usually the party with a power advantage) against whom the accusations are justified, and the other party who is comparatively innocent. Even though they accuse each other of the exact same thing and their behavior looks identical from a distance.
pphysch 5y ago
USA was created in the wake of perhaps the largest ethnic cleansing in human history (virtual entirety of the North American continent) and has been at war for >90% of its history. It has always been deeply racist (whether overt like KKK lynchings or subtle like census reporting and tokenism). Whatever these rightoids are allegedly plotting, you can't say they are "remaking" America into something radically new.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- the_doctah 5y ago