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MLK addresses looting. > Urban riots are a special form of violence. They are not insurrections. The rioters are not seeking to seize territory or to attain co

• titzer 5y ago
  Wow, that MLK quote cuts deep. It should also come with context as to what MLK was doing. He wasn't apologizing, rationalizing it, or supporting it. He was explaining why it happens. He continually called for non-violence and civil disobedience, not rioting. In many ways, he was calling to the black community to stop doing these things and up-level protests to effective means from ineffective means.
  • bennysomething 5y ago
    Sorry, from my perspective he's talking utter shite. I knew people in northern Ireland who rioted. They were young angry stupid men who didn't give a fuck who's lives they were making a misery. It was a form of collective punishment on people whose only crime was having a business or a car that idiots enjoyed smashing up
    • titzer 5y ago
      > people in northern Ireland who rioted Yeah, these are not equivalent scenarios.
      • bennysomething 5y ago
        A divided population , a minority that sees itself as a victim of oppression, rioting and other violence. Yes, the people doing the rioting don't have similar excuses at all. Edit infact in school I was taught Catholic civil right protestors drew inspiration from the black civil rights movement
        • nextaccountic 5y ago
          > Edit infact in school I was taught Catholic civil right protestors drew inspiration from the black civil rights movement Indeed, https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/dr-king-s-impact-fight-civil-rights-northern-ireland-n495701 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/dr-king-s-impact-fight-c...
    • dwater 5y ago
      That sounds exactly like what MLK was describing: "Often the Negro does not even want what he takes; he wants the experience of taking. But most of all, alienated from society and knowing that this society cherishes property above people, he is shocking it by abusing property rights." It's about shocking society more than it is about the property and who it belongs to.
      • Simon_O_Rourke 5y ago
        Amm, not in northern Ireland like the commenter says. That wasn't people out to just shock anyone. Same repression by the state, but differently aims.
      • jl6 5y ago
        When you say “it’s about”, it’s like you’re assuming rioters need to have a rational explanation for what they do. It could very well just be the unleashing of some inner raw-animal destructiveness for no reason other than the opportunity presented itself. Post-hoc rationalizations need not have any connection to the rioters themselves.
    • kingraoul3 5y ago
      • bennysomething 5y ago
        Erm, surely this applies to MLK too.
    • sandworm101 5y ago
      >> a form of collective punishment on people whose only crime was having a business or a car that idiots enjoyed smashing up So people without property were punishing people who had property? Sounds very standard to me. Extend that a bit further and you get something like the French revolution where poor people executed rich people for the crime of simply being rich.
      • posterboy 5y ago
        If being rich were simply simple, wouldn't everyone have been rich?
      • sdenton4 5y ago
        Correction: the crime of being rich while many starved. I'm currently reading 'The Dawn of Everything,' and it is FASCINATING. The case made at the beginning of the book is that notions of equality and individual freedom basically came into being in Europe because of contact with indigenous Americans. Suddenly there was a flood of observations and conversations with societies that made sure no one went hungry. And then when people started starving with the knowledge that another world was possible, things got violent. Incidentally, many-to-most violent uprisings have started with food shortages. Typically people have to be extremely uncomfortable before they start breaking out the guillotines, and hunger is extremely uncomfortable... And one of the still-active remnants of the French revolution is a government regulation ensuring that baguettes are cheap and readily available.
        • sandworm101 5y ago
          The recent violence in kazakhstan came after the possible rise in gas and electricity prices (which in turn is tied to crypo mining). The Terror started with food shortages but I think the next violent revolution will be triggered by energy prices, be it gas or electricity. As for breaking out the guillotines, that doesn't take much. A gallows made an appearance on January 6th. Those people looked very well-fed. I'm not sure they were joking.
        • leereeves 5y ago
          > The case made at the beginning of the book is that notions of equality and individual freedom basically came into being in Europe because of contact with indigenous Americans. The biggest problem with that theory is that indigenous Americans generally did not hold notions of equality and individual freedom. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_among_the_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas#Pre-Columbian_era https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_among_the_indigenous_p... 2: https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/military-history/history-heritage/popular-books/aboriginal-people-canadian-military/warfare-pre-columbian-north-america.html https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/service... 3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois#War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois#War
    • lamontcg 5y ago
      > It was a form of collective punishment Yes, and those people aren't allowed to do that, only approved governments.
    • weeblewobble 5y ago
      are you really sorry?
• hcurtiss 5y ago
  • lanternfish 5y ago
    That's a strange position to pivot off of - there's no normative claim in that entire passage, just an analytical deconstruction of a societal manifestation.
    • hcurtiss 5y ago
      "Often the Negro does not even want what he takes; he wants the experience of taking. But most of all, alienated from society and knowing that this society cherishes property above people, he is shocking it by abusing property rights." Maybe times have changed, but this is excusing and not at all accurately characterizing the people I saw looting Nike, Best Buy, and Walmart. It was naked theft under the cover of "equity." I want to know whether MLK was principled, or a politician making excuses. I'll do more research.
      • mxkopy 5y ago
        Interesting...you seem to have a superpower... you can look at someone and read their exact psychological state... you know their wants and intentions from a glance... How do you sleep with such a burden?
    • dangerface 5y ago
      > The rioters are not seeking to seize territory or to attain control of institutions. This sentence is particularly egregious. To see MLK just come straight out and say black people don't target institutions because they don't care about changing them kind of defeats any legitimate argument for rioting. The problem with the MLK quote is that he is just confirming what every racist white person thinks, institutional racism isn't a thing black people just want free shit and are willing to resort to violence to get it.
      • klyrs 5y ago
• deleted 5y ago
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• mariodiana 5y ago
  Violence, or the threat of violence, against a civilian population with the intended aim of effecting political change is the actual definition of terrorism, special or not.
  • teachrdan 5y ago
    I think what you may be missing is that this paper juxtaposes "Just Riots" with "Just Wars."[0] In modern warfare, massive numbers of civilians are often killed -- for example, the most deadly bomb attack of World War II was the Allied firebombing of Tokyo, which killed over 100,000 people, almost all of whom were civilians.[1] Surely this is "violence, against a civilian population, with the intended aim of effecting political change". Indeed, harming morale was an explicit goal of attacks like those against Tokyo and Dresden during WWII.[2] The idea was that the population would be cowed by these attacks and (somehow) get their governments to surrender to the Allies. So the question is: If we have a theory of "Just War," that includes wars where the "just" side can claim to morally kill tens of thousands of civilians at once, then should there also be a theory of "Just Riots," even if riots can scare civilians sometimes hurt or kill them? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_Wa...
    • josephcsible 5y ago
      There's a really big difference between civilian targets being collateral damage, and civilian targets being attacked intentionally. It's not like the rioters thought they were looting a police station but accidentally ended up in Target; they intentionally chose to loot Target.
      • teachrdan 5y ago
        The mass killing of civilians in Tokyo and Dresden was absolutely deliberate. Same with Hiroshima and Nagasaki; the atom bombs used in those attacks were dropped on the center of those cities, even though the factories we were ostensibly targeting were located on the outskirts. Having said that: If indeed the Allies targeted civilians intentionally in World War II, would you say that the war was unjust? Or that the Allies committed war crimes? If not, then you might consider that there is such a thing as just riots.
• xibalba 5y ago
  > Often the Negro does not even want what he takes Riiiiight. I guess that’s why it’s mostly big box consumer stores being looted and not, say, an industrial supply company like a Grainger or even a hardware store like Home Depot. Reads a lot like a motivated rationalization of inexcusable criminality.
  • mxkopy 5y ago
    > Reads a lot like a motivated rationalization of inexcusable criminality. To MLK ? Really ??? > Riiiiight. I guess that’s why it’s mostly big box consumer stores being looted and not, say, an industrial supply company like a Grainger or even a hardware store like Home Depot. My guy I'm sure they're just going to their nearest / most frequented shops. If a Home Depot was in the neighborhood, I'm sure they would rob it.
    • Jensson 5y ago
      > To MLK ? Really ??? I think that was meant to the quoter of MLK, MLK lived 50 years ago so he has no understanding of the events happening today. So it is the person bringing up the quote who stands by its validity for todays events.
  • Volundr 5y ago
    > Riiiiight. I guess that’s why it’s mostly big box consumer stores being looted and not, say, an industrial supply company like a Grainger or even a hardware store like Home Depot. In addition to the point made in a sibling comment, are you sure it is mostly big box stores? It seems just as reasonable to me that the big ticket items are what you hear about because someone stealing a bunch of 50c plumbing supplies just doesn't produce the same headlines. Certainly we've heard of things like 7/11s being hit, which frankly don't have as many "big ticket" items as Home Depot or Grainger.