7 ms·

We cannot marginalize segments of our population based on race, nationality, religion, sex, etc. and expect to remain competitive. This is a basic truth of econ

by _wldu 5y ago

We cannot marginalize segments of our population based on race, nationality, religion, sex, etc. and expect to remain competitive. This is a basic truth of economics. And it's also wrong to do that to people in the first place. Americans are Americans and we all should be treated equally by our government.

ping333pong 5y ago
Who says Chinese spies are ethnically Chinese? Charles Lieber isn’t ethnically Chinese. Money can corrupt regardless.
- JCharante 5y ago
  Exactly. The best Chinese spies wouldn't be ethnically Chinese at all, it'd be too obvious.
mtsr 5y ago
Absolutely. But there’s also a large number of Chinese (rather than Chinese-American or Chinese-[European]) scientists working at Western institutes on Chinese grants. And things become a lot trickier there. Especially as there have been more than a few very visible cases of espionage that happened similarly.
gurkendoktor 5y ago
No disagreement about ethics, but: > This is a basic truth of economics. Is this basic truth backed up by anything tangible? Ethnic Chinese already face unfair hurdles by the current push against standardized testing. But one more obstacle would suddenly make the US unable to compete? With whom, anyway - the only worthy competitor I can think of is hardly egalitarian. It seems like dangerously wishful thinking to me that liberal ethics, or just basic fairness, automatically translates into economic strength.
- sigmaprimus 5y ago
  >>>Ethnic Chinese already face unfair hurdles by the current push against standardized testing. Please elaborate on this argument.
  - gurkendoktor 5y ago
    Hard to pick a neutral source about this, how about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_Fair_Admissions_v._President_and_Fellows_of_Harvard_College#Plaintiff_allegations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_Fair_Admissions_v... > According to his testimony, if an Asian-American applicant with certain characteristics (like scores, GPAs, and extracurricular activities, family background) would result in a 25% statistical likelihood of admission, the same applicant, if white, will have a 36% likelihood of admission. (And that is with standardized testing in the mix, it stands to reason that the gap will grow with further emphasis on "personality".) I don't have data to prove that these statistics apply to Chinese-Americans specifically, that's an assumption on my side. Whether this is morally wrong is up for debate, but I thought it was relevant in the context of national competitiveness.
  - MagnumOpus 5y ago
    Asian-Americans (in particular ethnic Chinese and Indian) have, on average, far better ACT/SAT scores than white or black applicants to good US universities. It is an open secret that in order to balance admissions (i.e. racially discriminate) against the former and in favour of the latter, most universities downweight test scores in favour of other subjective categories like "personality" scores where Asians magically get far worse scores than people of other ethnicities. A quite divisive practice, as it is quite clearly racist, but serves "affirmative action" of raising black representation in good schools. See the famous case "Students for Fair Admissions v. President and Fellows of Harvard College", to be litigated in front of the SCOTUS this year.
    - known 5y ago
sigmaprimus 5y ago
Interesting comment...Other than the statement made about not wanting to speak to his wife in a foreign language, which I took as Gang Chen's perceived fear of racist treatment rather than actual racism. I did not get the opinion that racism had any role in the actions taken by authorities. I am curious and you obviously do not need to answer, but in an effort for a fair and honest conversation and your seeing racism in this story, do you identify as a visible minority? I think he was targeted upon returning from China when he refused to turn over device passwords to the DHS agents (Who could have been racist but are definitely authoritarian). Don't get me wrong this whole situation rings heavily of McCarthyism and worse the offer to confess or take a deal is a disgusting practice that has destroyed many young (Black) men's lives under the guise of justice being served. There is a history of the state making the threat that not confessing's result will be so bad that deals were made and those deals had life long consequences that changed and continue to change the trajectory of lives that otherwise had great potential if not for a corrupt legal system.
iqanq 5y ago
>We cannot marginalize segments of our population based on race, nationality, religion, sex, etc. and expect to remain competitive. Seems to be working for China.
- JCharante 5y ago
  I thought salaries in the STEM fields were higher for foreigners than locals. It's kinda like reverse-marginalization.

by _wldu 5y ago

ping333pong 5y ago

Who says Chinese spies are ethnically Chinese? Charles Lieber isn’t ethnically Chinese. Money can corrupt regardless.

JCharante 5y ago
Exactly. The best Chinese spies wouldn't be ethnically Chinese at all, it'd be too obvious.

mtsr 5y ago

Absolutely. But there’s also a large number of Chinese (rather than Chinese-American or Chinese-[European]) scientists working at Western institutes on Chinese grants. And things become a lot trickier there. Especially as there have been more than a few very visible cases of espionage that happened similarly.

gurkendoktor 5y ago

No disagreement about ethics, but: > This is a basic truth of economics. Is this basic truth backed up by anything tangible? Ethnic Chinese already face unfair hurdles by the current push against standardized testing. But one more obstacle would suddenly make the US unable to compete? With whom, anyway - the only worthy competitor I can think of is hardly egalitarian. It seems like dangerously wishful thinking to me that liberal ethics, or just basic fairness, automatically translates into economic strength.

sigmaprimus 5y ago
>>>Ethnic Chinese already face unfair hurdles by the current push against standardized testing. Please elaborate on this argument.
- gurkendoktor 5y ago
  Hard to pick a neutral source about this, how about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_Fair_Admissions_v._President_and_Fellows_of_Harvard_College#Plaintiff_allegations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_Fair_Admissions_v... > According to his testimony, if an Asian-American applicant with certain characteristics (like scores, GPAs, and extracurricular activities, family background) would result in a 25% statistical likelihood of admission, the same applicant, if white, will have a 36% likelihood of admission. (And that is with standardized testing in the mix, it stands to reason that the gap will grow with further emphasis on "personality".) I don't have data to prove that these statistics apply to Chinese-Americans specifically, that's an assumption on my side. Whether this is morally wrong is up for debate, but I thought it was relevant in the context of national competitiveness.
- MagnumOpus 5y ago
  Asian-Americans (in particular ethnic Chinese and Indian) have, on average, far better ACT/SAT scores than white or black applicants to good US universities. It is an open secret that in order to balance admissions (i.e. racially discriminate) against the former and in favour of the latter, most universities downweight test scores in favour of other subjective categories like "personality" scores where Asians magically get far worse scores than people of other ethnicities. A quite divisive practice, as it is quite clearly racist, but serves "affirmative action" of raising black representation in good schools. See the famous case "Students for Fair Admissions v. President and Fellows of Harvard College", to be litigated in front of the SCOTUS this year.
  - known 5y ago

sigmaprimus 5y ago

Interesting comment...Other than the statement made about not wanting to speak to his wife in a foreign language, which I took as Gang Chen's perceived fear of racist treatment rather than actual racism. I did not get the opinion that racism had any role in the actions taken by authorities. I am curious and you obviously do not need to answer, but in an effort for a fair and honest conversation and your seeing racism in this story, do you identify as a visible minority? I think he was targeted upon returning from China when he refused to turn over device passwords to the DHS agents (Who could have been racist but are definitely authoritarian). Don't get me wrong this whole situation rings heavily of McCarthyism and worse the offer to confess or take a deal is a disgusting practice that has destroyed many young (Black) men's lives under the guise of justice being served. There is a history of the state making the threat that not confessing's result will be so bad that deals were made and those deals had life long consequences that changed and continue to change the trajectory of lives that otherwise had great potential if not for a corrupt legal system.

iqanq 5y ago

>We cannot marginalize segments of our population based on race, nationality, religion, sex, etc. and expect to remain competitive. Seems to be working for China.

JCharante 5y ago
I thought salaries in the STEM fields were higher for foreigners than locals. It's kinda like reverse-marginalization.