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I don't understand why Americans are so against human scale housing: where there's retail on the bottom floors and apartments (condos) above. But also where the

I don't understand why Americans are so against human scale housing: where there's retail on the bottom floors and apartments (condos) above. But also where the development is well connected to adjacent parcels and into an overall city general plan. Perhaps it's because they simply aren't aware a different pattern is available.

k8sToGo 5y ago
When I lived in the US it was quite common to have retail space on the ground floor and apartments on the other floors. At least for modern buildings.
yason 5y ago
If you design for cars you will never get that: instead, you will get malls instead of city blocks. Or malls with an apartment block on the same lot but the residents still can't walk anywhere except to that one mall.
alistairSH 5y ago
Zoning (and cars). Most developed areas have some version of single use zoning. Changing that takes time and money (lawyers, political campaign contributions, etc). This in turn means only large developers can afford to redevelop. And it’s only worth their time if they can do a massive project. So instead of human scale stuff, we get massive multi-block size buildings. Like this block in Reston VA[1]. The lots surrounding it are all a slated for similar buildings - the existing mid-rise are mostly mid-80s through mid-90s builds. The new building is bad because it’s unnavigable. As you approach, it’s just a giant blob. There’s a CVS pharmacy in there, but try to find it - it’s not easy. Parking is a mess. And heaven help if you need to walk to the building. Oh, no bike racks either, aside from a subscription bike room for subway users (nothing on the main retail levels). 1- https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/Reston_Station_West_View.jpg/320px-Reston_Station_West_View.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/Re...
- alistairSH 5y ago
  And to be clear - I'm referring to the building on the right of the highway in that photo. And I'm not against redevelopment. I'm glad my area is turning these massive open parking lots into mixed-use buildings. I just wish they were building them in a more organic urban style. I live within walking distance of several of these projects, but rarely walk to them because I have to cross too many 6-8 lane intersections and massive swaths of asphalt parking lot (with distracted office workers hurrying to-fro).
lotsofpulp 5y ago
>I don't understand why Americans are so against human scale housing: where there's retail on the bottom floors and apartments (condos) above. Americans are not against it, philosophically. It is a simple consequence of economics of scale allowing big stores such as Costco and Target and Home Depot and Kroger to be able to offer better pricing and selection. If you allow for everyone to own a large personal vehicle, via parking minimums and sufficient road capacity, then everyone has large personal vehicles because they have very high utility. And once you have the vehicle, the marginal cost to use it is near zero, so there is a lot of incentive to drive to a big box store and save money rather than shop at a smaller store downstairs.
- epistasis 5y ago
  Those economics are the result of the system set up by politics and laws, which mandate car dependency and outlaw walkable neighborhoods. Those stores arose because smaller more convenient commercial space is banned. And once going to the store means a drive, hunting for a parking spot, and walking, you start to minimize your trips to the store, and buy a lot more at once to minimize the basic hassle of doing it by car. And once each trip becomes more infrequent and larger scale, then the bigger stores start to make sense, because you are never going to be walking by their store front and quickly grab something, they try to get every last dollar from you on your trip by providing a huge array of products, requiring more space.
  - Vrondi 5y ago
    In my part of the USA, there are no laws outlawing walkable neighborhoods. Small, convenient commercial space is not banned. However, renting or leasing a small shop space in our quaint, cute, walkable downtown is _expensive_. It is cheaper for a business owner to rent space in the malls, most of which are located outside city limits, not subject to city tax, and much cheaper to lease a storefront in. All the malls, the Wal-Marts, the strip-mall-shopping-centers full of big-box stores, they are all built outside city limits, because there is far less red tape, less taxes, etc. The cute downtown wanted to preserve their old-fashioned cuteness all through the 80s and 90s, and they did so. The result is that everything went just outside of town for a long time, and the downtown stores slowly lost more and more business to the big boxes as more and more residents who live downtown drove their cars outside town to shop, and eventually began to move to new developments outside of town.
closeparen 5y ago
Multifamily housing is for poor people, or for very specific and unsymapthetic cohorts of rich people like San Francisco tech bros and New York investment bankers. Normal, relatable American families live in detached houses. The details of the multifamily structure don't seem to matter very much. If it's got shared walls and no yard, it's antithetical to the American Dream. Neighbors will perceive it as "for" either a higher or lower class, never for them.

k8sToGo 5y ago

When I lived in the US it was quite common to have retail space on the ground floor and apartments on the other floors. At least for modern buildings.

yason 5y ago

If you design for cars you will never get that: instead, you will get malls instead of city blocks. Or malls with an apartment block on the same lot but the residents still can't walk anywhere except to that one mall.

alistairSH 5y ago

Zoning (and cars). Most developed areas have some version of single use zoning. Changing that takes time and money (lawyers, political campaign contributions, etc). This in turn means only large developers can afford to redevelop. And it’s only worth their time if they can do a massive project. So instead of human scale stuff, we get massive multi-block size buildings. Like this block in Reston VA[1]. The lots surrounding it are all a slated for similar buildings - the existing mid-rise are mostly mid-80s through mid-90s builds. The new building is bad because it’s unnavigable. As you approach, it’s just a giant blob. There’s a CVS pharmacy in there, but try to find it - it’s not easy. Parking is a mess. And heaven help if you need to walk to the building. Oh, no bike racks either, aside from a subscription bike room for subway users (nothing on the main retail levels). 1- https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/Reston_Station_West_View.jpg/320px-Reston_Station_West_View.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/Re...

alistairSH 5y ago
And to be clear - I'm referring to the building on the right of the highway in that photo. And I'm not against redevelopment. I'm glad my area is turning these massive open parking lots into mixed-use buildings. I just wish they were building them in a more organic urban style. I live within walking distance of several of these projects, but rarely walk to them because I have to cross too many 6-8 lane intersections and massive swaths of asphalt parking lot (with distracted office workers hurrying to-fro).

lotsofpulp 5y ago

>I don't understand why Americans are so against human scale housing: where there's retail on the bottom floors and apartments (condos) above. Americans are not against it, philosophically. It is a simple consequence of economics of scale allowing big stores such as Costco and Target and Home Depot and Kroger to be able to offer better pricing and selection. If you allow for everyone to own a large personal vehicle, via parking minimums and sufficient road capacity, then everyone has large personal vehicles because they have very high utility. And once you have the vehicle, the marginal cost to use it is near zero, so there is a lot of incentive to drive to a big box store and save money rather than shop at a smaller store downstairs.

epistasis 5y ago
Those economics are the result of the system set up by politics and laws, which mandate car dependency and outlaw walkable neighborhoods. Those stores arose because smaller more convenient commercial space is banned. And once going to the store means a drive, hunting for a parking spot, and walking, you start to minimize your trips to the store, and buy a lot more at once to minimize the basic hassle of doing it by car. And once each trip becomes more infrequent and larger scale, then the bigger stores start to make sense, because you are never going to be walking by their store front and quickly grab something, they try to get every last dollar from you on your trip by providing a huge array of products, requiring more space.
- Vrondi 5y ago
  In my part of the USA, there are no laws outlawing walkable neighborhoods. Small, convenient commercial space is not banned. However, renting or leasing a small shop space in our quaint, cute, walkable downtown is _expensive_. It is cheaper for a business owner to rent space in the malls, most of which are located outside city limits, not subject to city tax, and much cheaper to lease a storefront in. All the malls, the Wal-Marts, the strip-mall-shopping-centers full of big-box stores, they are all built outside city limits, because there is far less red tape, less taxes, etc. The cute downtown wanted to preserve their old-fashioned cuteness all through the 80s and 90s, and they did so. The result is that everything went just outside of town for a long time, and the downtown stores slowly lost more and more business to the big boxes as more and more residents who live downtown drove their cars outside town to shop, and eventually began to move to new developments outside of town.

closeparen 5y ago

Multifamily housing is for poor people, or for very specific and unsymapthetic cohorts of rich people like San Francisco tech bros and New York investment bankers. Normal, relatable American families live in detached houses. The details of the multifamily structure don't seem to matter very much. If it's got shared walls and no yard, it's antithetical to the American Dream. Neighbors will perceive it as "for" either a higher or lower class, never for them.