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There should be no such thing as books that are not allowed to be read. Under any circumstance. Certainly in schools. Students should expand their minds read we
by ivolimmen 5y ago
There should be no such thing as books that are not allowed to be read. Under any circumstance. Certainly in schools. Students should expand their minds read weird books and discuss them openly.
Just like reading Mine Kampf is not banned in the Netherlands (or Germany).
Stores however are not allowed to sell it (Dutch Government has the rights to the Dutch translation so disallowing reprints is easy). But even then; I can download the PDF on the net without issues. And I can read it. I can even sell an old copy of the book (if I had one) without repercussions.
- FeepingCreature 5y agoThough amusingly, in Germany - not really for Mein Kampf - but for other extremist propaganda writings, you are not allowed to keep more than three copies. (Since it's then assumed you're storing them for distribution.) Not sure how relevant this still is given the Internet.
- sascha_sl 5y agoI'm not sure how you arrived at three copies. Intend to distribute is the only factor actually written into law.
- freemint 5y agoBy a judge's ruling probably.
- sascha_sl 5y agoGermany doesn't have case law unless you get to a constitutional court, and even then it only mandates that the parliament fix it within a generous time frame (and they might ignore half of the things said in the ruling, as with the change to 45b PStG).
- anthony_d 5y agoThat sounds worse to me. 3 is at least an objective number. Being tried based on intent is always problematic.
- FeepingCreature 5y agoDefinition of "vorrätig hält" when I googled it.
- sascha_sl 5y agoIn Germany heavily annotated versions are sold.
- iqanq 5y agoI imagine what kind of annotations they are...
- nix23 5y agoDo you?...tell me about..
- martin_a 5y agoWhat do you think they are?
- sascha_sl 5y agoPlease elaborate what annotations you'd think inappropriate for the incoherent ramblings of Adolf Hitler. Not that you'd ever want to read it. Mussolini famously gave up on finishing it. Even in nazi germany it was always more of a symbol, a book you buy in support of its author and proudly present on your shelf - not read.
- Freak_NL 5y agoIt just adds a sidebar that annotates each and every sentence with »Quatsch!«. But no. The 2015 annotated edition was released by the Institut für Zeigeschichte under critical acclaim. Its annotations are (rough translation mine): > A critical commentary that deconstructs and contextualizes Hitler's work. How did his assumptions come into being? Which goals was he trying to accomplish by these? Where his claims supported by by his contemporaries in society? Which consequences did his announcements have after 1933? And above all, how can Hitler's myriad of claims, lies, and policy goals be countered by our current understanding? https://www.ifz-muenchen.de/mein-kampf/ https://www.ifz-muenchen.de/mein-kampf/
- iqanq 5y agoYes, that is exactly what I meant. Thanks.
- nix23 5y agoMein Kampf was banned in Germany, that just changed 3 years ago.
- FeepingCreature 5y agoIt was "banned" by copyright - the Bavarian state had the rights (by inheritance) and wasn't giving anyone permission to reprint it.
- crisdux 5y agoI agree in principle but I think you are missing the controversy that’s going on. These topics are being taught irresponsibly with no regard to the neutrality, openness or critical thinking that you seem to be implying. They are being used to indoctrinate. In some parts of the United States, for some topics, schools have stopped being institutions that students can discuss these topics outside of very narrow and one sided perspective. I’m not exaggerating, students get bad marks or aren’t even allowed to challenge ideas. So, if these schools are unable to teach these materials appropriately, maybe it should be left to other institutions that can. There is real corruption going on and parents are angry about what their kids are being taught. Some schools need to reform how they teach these topics and they are completely unwilling to do so without political pressure.
- klyrs 5y agoIt's interesting that you say one-sided, because Black, indigenous, lgbtq, AAPI, Latin, women, Jewish, Muslim, disability, etc. rights activists/movements are each independent, and often conflicting. This list seeks to eradicate all of that, in favor of a single, white christian, perspective.
- insickness 5y ago> This list seeks to eradicate all of that, in favor of a single, white christian, perspective. This is a straw man. Teaching history is important but teaching all history through the lens of oppressor/oppressed is problematic. Many parents' rightly object to ideologically-driven teachings where white children are singled-out and taught that they are oppressors of all other children.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- mcphage 5y ago> These topics are being taught irresponsibly with no regard to the neutrality, openness or critical thinking that you seem to be implying. They are being used to indoctrinate. In some parts of the United States, for some topics, schools have stopped being institutions that students can discuss these topics outside of very narrow and one sided perspective. I’m not exaggerating, students get bad marks or aren’t even allowed to challenge ideas. Ah, yes, so let's leave it up to conservative Texan parents, a group famous for being willing to teach "neutrality, openness, or critical thinking".
- iso1631 5y ago> Certainly in schools So some obscene book (think the worst parts of pornhub coupled with the worst parts of erotic fanfiction) should be in primary schools?
- technothrasher 5y ago> There should be no such thing as books that are not allowed to be read. While Texas State Representative Matt Krause's attempt to limit exposure these books is politically misguided and dangerous, we're not talking about books not being allowed to be read. We're talking about schools not being allowed to have the books in their libraries. > But even then; I can download the PDF on the net without issues. And I can read it. I can even sell an old copy of the book (if I had one) without repercussions. Students in Texas could also do all of these things, even if these books were banned from school libraries. If this nonsense goes through, the best way to address it in the short term would be to increase kid's exposure to the list and suggest it as a reading list. Kids are naturally curious about 'banned' things. All they really even need to do is read the titles of the books in the list and they'll get a good idea of what makes conservatives in TX scared.
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y agoI firmly believe that "Mein Kampf" is a must-read book for any civilized person. It is very educational, best read together with Tanya Savicheva's diary [1] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanya_Savicheva https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanya_Savicheva
- q1w2 5y agoIt's unclear whether these books are being banned from being read in schools, or banned from being part of a curriculum. My opinion is that the books school boards pre-select for students to be part of their curriculum, should be from a carefully selected list of books. In general, it should not include newly published books, but rather ones that have survived the test of time by remaining relevant over decades/centuries/millenia.
- bradlys 5y agoWhile a nice thought - I think only choosing those that have “remained relevant” over such a long period of time are likely to be those that are problematic… And typically came from one class, gender, and race of people. At least from the books I was seeing…
- q1w2 5y agoThe notion that only white European Christian rich men have created historic literature and texts is itself an incredibly racist and misogynistic perspective. If you look at the list, the books being questioned are published within the last 0 to 10 years. Books so new they have not gained scientific or scholarly acceptance or review. Many are likely transient pieces which follow the latest media fashion. It would be analogous to teaching organic chemistry students with anecdotal papers on Ivermectin. Teach kids the foundational fundamentals, and then let them explore whatever they want on their own as they mature. Feeding them agenda-driven narrative-supporting books is just a mechanism of indoctrination - not education.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]