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> Hide internal structure (that "private" is the default in C++, Java and Rust just adds to boilerplate; the default case is that you want everything public (un

> Hide internal structure (that "private" is the default in C++, Java and Rust just adds to boilerplate; the default case is that you want everything public (unless you like writing trivial getters and setters just for the fun of it); legitimate uses of "private" exist, but are rare) This is such a strange POV to me. There are cases where your classes are just data records, but any object with logic surely wants to restrict access to its state so it can maintain invariants? E.g. the simplest classes I can think of, like a vector that consists of a pointer to a buffer, a length and a capacity, wouldn't want to provide a setter for the buffer, or allow callers to set it to a random value?

tjajab 5y ago
I guess that for a lot of people it is the case where you have a class with mutable state that is the anomaly.
yakubin 5y ago
IME I write about 10-20 as many data records as "classes". I do use "private" from time to time to protect invariants. But if the default was switched to public, my code on balance would be a lot shorter and readable. I'm not saying that "private" shouldn't exist. I'm saying it's a poor default.
- tubs 5y ago
  In c++ you choose the default so I'm not sure it should be lumped in with the others.
  - rightbyte 5y ago
    In the literal sense private is default though. I wonder why. Lexical sorting of private, protected and public? It makes almost no sense to have all private class fields and methods. The only thing I can think of is fat handles with friend classes or functions.
    - tubs 5y ago
      struct over class then.
    - andi999 5y ago
      In c++ a class declared with the keyword 'class' is private by default, and a class declared with the keyword 'struct' is public by default. So if you want public by default just write 'struct' (somehow this is not commonly known). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B_classes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B_classes
      - klodolph 5y ago
        I think the “somehow” is not too hard to guess… it is easy to think that “class” is the only way to declare a class, especially since “struct” is taken from C. I’m sure very few intro C++ explanations ever mention “struct” as a way to declare a class.
        andi999 5y ago
        Yes, I meant common introductory material should mention (and use) it (I think Bjarne does mention it, but I wouldnt call it introductory material)
        TillE 5y ago
        There's quite a lot about C++ which wouldn't be covered in a simple tutorial, but the meaning of class/struct is a pretty basic part of the language, hardly obscure. Maybe it's something you could miss if you're coming from a strong C background and still thinking of C++ as C-with-classes, but otherwise it's something any serious user of the language would pick up.
        klodolph 5y ago
        This comment represents some of the worst elitism I see in the programming community.
lifeisstillgood 5y ago
This is where Python's "consenting adults" idea comes in. Why the hell should someone change a vector "mid-flight" - that is a huge code smell and should be dealt with in the review / design / discussion / pub. But there are reasons and rationales to "lockdown" the code (beyond not trusting fellow devs!) and at that point I suggest that any mutable state language cannot be properly locked down - so use a functional language where its easier to reason about. Usually (IMO) private classes etc are just trying to make it easier to reason about state changes - when its probably best to dump the whole mess.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- hogrider 5y ago
  In most situations, no you can not trust fellow devs to do the right thing and if you push for those reviews then you're the asshole and lose the office politics game. So yeah, I'd rather guardrail people into good behavior.
  - lifeisstillgood 5y ago
    Can I clarify? You get a review that just looks wrong and you become the asshole? What kind of reviews are these ?
    - lifeisstillgood 5y ago
      please ignore the above. I am sure reviews can become political arenas
barrkel 5y ago
It's nuts. It's deeply naive and utterly unworkable.

tjajab 5y ago

I guess that for a lot of people it is the case where you have a class with mutable state that is the anomaly.

yakubin 5y ago

IME I write about 10-20 as many data records as "classes". I do use "private" from time to time to protect invariants. But if the default was switched to public, my code on balance would be a lot shorter and readable. I'm not saying that "private" shouldn't exist. I'm saying it's a poor default.

tubs 5y ago
In c++ you choose the default so I'm not sure it should be lumped in with the others.
- rightbyte 5y ago
  In the literal sense private is default though. I wonder why. Lexical sorting of private, protected and public? It makes almost no sense to have all private class fields and methods. The only thing I can think of is fat handles with friend classes or functions.
  - tubs 5y ago
    struct over class then.
  - andi999 5y ago
    In c++ a class declared with the keyword 'class' is private by default, and a class declared with the keyword 'struct' is public by default. So if you want public by default just write 'struct' (somehow this is not commonly known). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B_classes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B_classes
    - klodolph 5y ago
      I think the “somehow” is not too hard to guess… it is easy to think that “class” is the only way to declare a class, especially since “struct” is taken from C. I’m sure very few intro C++ explanations ever mention “struct” as a way to declare a class.
      - andi999 5y ago
        Yes, I meant common introductory material should mention (and use) it (I think Bjarne does mention it, but I wouldnt call it introductory material)
      - TillE 5y ago
        There's quite a lot about C++ which wouldn't be covered in a simple tutorial, but the meaning of class/struct is a pretty basic part of the language, hardly obscure. Maybe it's something you could miss if you're coming from a strong C background and still thinking of C++ as C-with-classes, but otherwise it's something any serious user of the language would pick up.
        klodolph 5y ago
        This comment represents some of the worst elitism I see in the programming community.

lifeisstillgood 5y ago

This is where Python's "consenting adults" idea comes in. Why the hell should someone change a vector "mid-flight" - that is a huge code smell and should be dealt with in the review / design / discussion / pub. But there are reasons and rationales to "lockdown" the code (beyond not trusting fellow devs!) and at that point I suggest that any mutable state language cannot be properly locked down - so use a functional language where its easier to reason about. Usually (IMO) private classes etc are just trying to make it easier to reason about state changes - when its probably best to dump the whole mess.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
hogrider 5y ago
In most situations, no you can not trust fellow devs to do the right thing and if you push for those reviews then you're the asshole and lose the office politics game. So yeah, I'd rather guardrail people into good behavior.
- lifeisstillgood 5y ago
  Can I clarify? You get a review that just looks wrong and you become the asshole? What kind of reviews are these ?
  - lifeisstillgood 5y ago
    please ignore the above. I am sure reviews can become political arenas

barrkel 5y ago

It's nuts. It's deeply naive and utterly unworkable.