19 ms·

Texas lawmaker wants to know what books on race, sexuality are in schools

48 points by shankr 5y ago

RamblingCTO 5y ago
Wow. Even if I don't agree with this race/identity thing you guys have going on no books should ever be banned. You can't ban ideas and thoughts. You will only make them more interesting to people if they're banned imho.
- nigma1337 5y ago
  They aren't completely banned, as another comment mentions, just in schools. I believe it makes sense for them to be banned from being mandatory, but school libraries should still be able to carry them.
  - shankr 5y ago
    > Some Texas residents are asking for greater say in what titles appear on public library shelves https://www.texastribune.org/2021/12/20/texas-library-books/ https://www.texastribune.org/2021/12/20/texas-library-books/
  - RamblingCTO 5y ago
    Yeah, I actually meant that with banned. Of course you could ban books that are graphic and pornographic and such, but not that stuff. I totally agree with you!
instagraham 5y ago
The book titles are revealing of what Republic senators deem a threat. "Women's rights - Justin Karr
finite_jest 5y ago
This is kinda misleading, and the title is very editorialized. I think the link should be changed to the original Texas Tribune article which provides some context: https://www.texastribune.org/2021/10/26/texas-school-books-race-sexuality/ https://www.texastribune.org/2021/10/26/texas-school-books-r... This is a list of books which a member of Texas House of Representatives (Matt Krause) has inquired about from the Texas Education Agency (supposedly at least in part with respect to Texas's version of the "no critical race theory in schools" laws).
- jeffwass 5y ago
  Thanks for the link, but your comment is also a bit misleading. He’s not just casually inquiring the Texas Education Agency, he’s burdening school districts on this wild goose chase which is most likely a political stunt in his campaign for Texas Attorney General. Quote from the article you linked. I can’t imagine how much time it would take to track this information down for all 850 books on his list, and how these resources would be better spent on actual useful tasks for the school districts. “Krause informs districts they must provide the committee with the number of copies they have of each book, on what part of campus those books are located and how much money schools spent on the books, as well as information on any other book that violates House Bill 3979, the so-called “critical race theory law”designed to limit how race-related subjects are taught in public schools.”
- makomk 5y ago
  [flagged]
  - YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo 5y ago
    Citations needed.
  - Amezarak 5y ago
    Yes, neither set of books that either side seeks to ban are necessary or, perhaps, even good for an education in the humanities. Notice they are always relatively recent, usually pop fiction (as opposed to nonfiction) that teachers/librarians enjoyed that's supposed to "teach" you something about an actual historical event. You're supposed to read the fictionalized novel because it's more "relatable", definitely not because it ensures you see things through the preferred ideological lens of 21st century school librarians. (To be fair, the "other" side's banned books are usually what these people liked a generation earlier; although there are truly banned books, that, for example, cannot be sold on Amazon, and they are usually, but by no means always, more obviously offensive and of more questionable worth.) What you will not find on banned book lists, with few exceptions, is the books that were used to teach the humanities for hundreds, sometimes even thousands of years, up through the first half of the 20th century. Increasingly, you won't find them in the library, either. They haven't been "banned", though. They're just being "curated" out of collections and pulped. We had to update our library, you see. Human experience is different now, you need to read our modern and ideologically fashionable authors. That's why you have to scroll down to page 14/16 on that list before you find a book published before the year 2000. Of course, the perception (and maybe truth) is that the reaction against the currently fashionable propaganda literature in school libraries and reading lists is led by illiterates, not by people who think you should be reading Thucydides.
pwgentleman 5y ago
What does "banned" mean in this context?
- sodality2 5y ago
  Removed from school shelves. The title is very unclear in that it's for schools.
  - finite_jest 5y ago
    They are not removed from school shelves. This is not even a proposal for them to be removed from school shelves. The title is misleading. Please see my other comment above. Some State Rep has inquired about these, so is true that it's plausible that some of the books in the list may be targeted in the future, but that hasn't happened yet.
    - voxadam 5y ago
      > some of the books in the list may be targeted in the future, but that hasn't happened yet. It's quite literally a list of targeted books.
      - finite_jest 5y ago
        Not in the sense that they are being removed from the school libraries, but that might happen in the future. There are other instances of books being removed from libraries, or removed from the required reading lists, but this isn't one of them. Link to the inquiry: https://static.texastribune.org/media/files/965725d7f01b8a25ca44b6fde2f5519b/krauseletter.pdf https://static.texastribune.org/media/files/965725d7f01b8a25... EDIT: I learned of one instance of books already being "temporarily" removed by a school board [1] triggered by this inquiry. [1]: https://www.granburyisd.org/site/default.aspx?PageType=3&DomainID=23&ModuleInstanceID=37797&ViewID=6446EE88-D30C-497E-9316-3F8874B3E108&RenderLoc=0&FlexDataID=56433&PageID=22101 https://www.granburyisd.org/site/default.aspx?PageType=3&Dom...
- refurb 5y ago
legerdemain 5y ago
This is a sad farce and all, but the reality is that it doesn't take 850 books to educate a child in the humanities. It shouldn't take more than three: - 1984 by George Orwell (born Eric Arthur Blair) -- what evil looks like - The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius -- the "theory" of a good life - Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert Pirsig -- the "practice" of a good life ZAMM can be optionally replaced or supplemented by Jonathan Livingston Seagull by Robert Bach.
- klyrs 5y ago
  That really is a sad farce. I cannot imagine what my life would be like if there were only three books. You might try reading some more -- humanity is really quite fascinating, and your list only covers an extremely narrow slice.
  - legerdemain 5y ago
    You might have as well written "please continue practicing your recorder flute as an adult, it is really quite fascinating." At some point you have read the instructive books you needed to read and solidified the principles you want to live by. Anything after that is whimsical personal recreation, raising the question why we waste money forcing children to do it. Because English teachers believe their little hobby deserves a larger audience?
    - klyrs 5y ago
      In grade 5, I read my first thousand-page book (Pillars of the Earth), and your reading list would have kept me occupied for less than a month. I note your derision towards both music and literature, and pride in the depth of your ignorance. We are very different people, and that's okay, but schools aren't meant to be tailored precisely to you. They exist for all of the other students, too. Some of which will, yes, grow to be English or Music teachers. A random selection of humanities books I enjoyed in middle and high school, which you might enjoy and/or learn from: Guns, Germs and Steel The Art of War A People's History of the United States The Prince Catch-22
ivolimmen 5y ago
There should be no such thing as books that are not allowed to be read. Under any circumstance. Certainly in schools. Students should expand their minds read weird books and discuss them openly. Just like reading Mine Kampf is not banned in the Netherlands (or Germany). Stores however are not allowed to sell it (Dutch Government has the rights to the Dutch translation so disallowing reprints is easy). But even then; I can download the PDF on the net without issues. And I can read it. I can even sell an old copy of the book (if I had one) without repercussions.
- FeepingCreature 5y ago
  Though amusingly, in Germany - not really for Mein Kampf - but for other extremist propaganda writings, you are not allowed to keep more than three copies. (Since it's then assumed you're storing them for distribution.) Not sure how relevant this still is given the Internet.
  - sascha_sl 5y ago
    I'm not sure how you arrived at three copies. Intend to distribute is the only factor actually written into law.
    - freemint 5y ago
      By a judge's ruling probably.
      - sascha_sl 5y ago
        Germany doesn't have case law unless you get to a constitutional court, and even then it only mandates that the parliament fix it within a generous time frame (and they might ignore half of the things said in the ruling, as with the change to 45b PStG).
    - anthony_d 5y ago
      That sounds worse to me. 3 is at least an objective number. Being tried based on intent is always problematic.
moron4hire 5y ago
V for Vendetta is on the list.
- JohnGB 5y ago
  It's too educational about the true state of the American system and encourages people to do something bad for the US oligarchs, which in the USA is the ultimate evil.
- anomosmarxist 5y ago
  [dead]
was_a_dev 5y ago
Is the irony lost that such an anti-goverment state, is banning books?
- namlem 5y ago
  It's not really anti-government, it just likes the aesthetic of being anti-government.
- kc0bfv 5y ago
  And that the person making these inquiries is a, "founding member of the House Freedom Caucus"? (Thanks @finite_jest for the news article https://www.texastribune.org/2021/10/26/texas-school-books-race-sexuality/ https://www.texastribune.org/2021/10/26/texas-school-books-r...) Unfortunately just like putting "democratic" in your country name - if you have to put "freedom" in your name it's a good sign you are going for anything but.
JohnGB 5y ago
Remember that the Texas GOP had (has?) the following official policy: "We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills, critical thinking skills and similar programs..." So I'm not surprised that they oppose anything to do with a decent education, like a different point of view, but have no problem promoting a book that encourages slavery, rape, genocide, and misogyny. Reference: http://s3.amazonaws.com/texasgop_pre/assets/original/2012Platform_Final.pdf http://s3.amazonaws.com/texasgop_pre/assets/original/2012Pla...
nottorp 5y ago
Funny how both the right and left are trying to burn books in the US...
- shankr 5y ago
  - dataviz1000 5y ago
    edit: Agreed, there is a difference between a government censoring and private citizens protesting and boycotting.
    - benwad 5y ago
      So... someone wrote an article criticising it? That's not the same as banning it.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - klyrs 5y ago
      Was there a book-burning you meant to link to? Because I just read an article about the exercise of free speech, wherein the twitterati criticized the words of a famous author. What "due process“ do you imagine the government requiring of critical writing?
  - finite_jest 5y ago
    In the sense of school boards removing books from curricula, "To Kill a Mockingbird" is a recent example. [1] In the sense of removing books from bookstores, Amazon did ban a broad category of books. [2] In the sense of literally burning books, I'm don't know of any recent instances in the US by either side. But I know of one example in Canada. [3] [1]: https://www.newsweek.com/schools-drop-kill-mockingbird-required-reading-list-1672563 https://www.newsweek.com/schools-drop-kill-mockingbird-requi... [2]: WSJ: "Amazon Won’t Sell Books Framing LGBTQ+ Identities as Mental Illnesses" https://archive.fo/v5rWn https://archive.fo/v5rWn [3]: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/book-burning-at-ontario-francophone-schools-as-gesture-of-reconciliation-denounced https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/book-burning-at-ontario...
eimrine 5y ago
I have expected way more of my favourite books. BTW if somebody has at least half of that books, a magnet link is highly expected.
runeks 5y ago
I flagged this because the linked PDF does not support the claim in the title. I think it would be more appropriate to link to an article that supports the claim.
Freak_NL 5y ago
Tangentially related: “Tennessee school board bans Pulitzer prize-winning Holocaust novel, Maus”¹. Neil Gaiman's reaction on Twitter sums it up nicely: > There's only one kind of people who would vote to ban Maus, whatever they are calling themselves these days.² 1: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/27/tennessee-school-board-bans-pulitzer-prize-winning-holocaust-novel-maus https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/27/tennessee-scho... 2: https://twitter.com/neilhimself/status/1486473393075802112 https://twitter.com/neilhimself/status/1486473393075802112
brokenkebab 5y ago
Headline is misleading, and should be corrected. Not being American I went to look for the context, and the issue is about selection of books for educational system. Not about banning. Whether it is a successful way to shape better students is a interesting question to discuss. But fact is that all taxpayer-funded education all over the world includes selection of books for pupils.
nirse 5y ago
In the Land of the Free...
giords 5y ago
Why did USA start war in Afghanistan? If they were looking for Talibans they could've just peeked in Texas.

48 points by shankr 5y ago

Wow. Even if I don't agree with this race/identity thing you guys have going on no books should ever be banned. You can't ban ideas and thoughts. You will only make them more interesting to people if they're banned imho.

nigma1337 5y ago
They aren't completely banned, as another comment mentions, just in schools. I believe it makes sense for them to be banned from being mandatory, but school libraries should still be able to carry them.
- shankr 5y ago
  > Some Texas residents are asking for greater say in what titles appear on public library shelves https://www.texastribune.org/2021/12/20/texas-library-books/ https://www.texastribune.org/2021/12/20/texas-library-books/
- RamblingCTO 5y ago
  Yeah, I actually meant that with banned. Of course you could ban books that are graphic and pornographic and such, but not that stuff. I totally agree with you!

instagraham 5y ago

The book titles are revealing of what Republic senators deem a threat. "Women's rights - Justin Karr

finite_jest 5y ago

This is kinda misleading, and the title is very editorialized. I think the link should be changed to the original Texas Tribune article which provides some context: https://www.texastribune.org/2021/10/26/texas-school-books-race-sexuality/ https://www.texastribune.org/2021/10/26/texas-school-books-r... This is a list of books which a member of Texas House of Representatives (Matt Krause) has inquired about from the Texas Education Agency (supposedly at least in part with respect to Texas's version of the "no critical race theory in schools" laws).

jeffwass 5y ago
Thanks for the link, but your comment is also a bit misleading. He’s not just casually inquiring the Texas Education Agency, he’s burdening school districts on this wild goose chase which is most likely a political stunt in his campaign for Texas Attorney General. Quote from the article you linked. I can’t imagine how much time it would take to track this information down for all 850 books on his list, and how these resources would be better spent on actual useful tasks for the school districts. “Krause informs districts they must provide the committee with the number of copies they have of each book, on what part of campus those books are located and how much money schools spent on the books, as well as information on any other book that violates House Bill 3979, the so-called “critical race theory law”designed to limit how race-related subjects are taught in public schools.”
makomk 5y ago
[flagged]
- YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo 5y ago
  Citations needed.
- Amezarak 5y ago
  Yes, neither set of books that either side seeks to ban are necessary or, perhaps, even good for an education in the humanities. Notice they are always relatively recent, usually pop fiction (as opposed to nonfiction) that teachers/librarians enjoyed that's supposed to "teach" you something about an actual historical event. You're supposed to read the fictionalized novel because it's more "relatable", definitely not because it ensures you see things through the preferred ideological lens of 21st century school librarians. (To be fair, the "other" side's banned books are usually what these people liked a generation earlier; although there are truly banned books, that, for example, cannot be sold on Amazon, and they are usually, but by no means always, more obviously offensive and of more questionable worth.) What you will not find on banned book lists, with few exceptions, is the books that were used to teach the humanities for hundreds, sometimes even thousands of years, up through the first half of the 20th century. Increasingly, you won't find them in the library, either. They haven't been "banned", though. They're just being "curated" out of collections and pulped. We had to update our library, you see. Human experience is different now, you need to read our modern and ideologically fashionable authors. That's why you have to scroll down to page 14/16 on that list before you find a book published before the year 2000. Of course, the perception (and maybe truth) is that the reaction against the currently fashionable propaganda literature in school libraries and reading lists is led by illiterates, not by people who think you should be reading Thucydides.

pwgentleman 5y ago

What does "banned" mean in this context?

sodality2 5y ago
Removed from school shelves. The title is very unclear in that it's for schools.
- finite_jest 5y ago
  They are not removed from school shelves. This is not even a proposal for them to be removed from school shelves. The title is misleading. Please see my other comment above. Some State Rep has inquired about these, so is true that it's plausible that some of the books in the list may be targeted in the future, but that hasn't happened yet.
  - voxadam 5y ago
    > some of the books in the list may be targeted in the future, but that hasn't happened yet. It's quite literally a list of targeted books.
    - finite_jest 5y ago
      Not in the sense that they are being removed from the school libraries, but that might happen in the future. There are other instances of books being removed from libraries, or removed from the required reading lists, but this isn't one of them. Link to the inquiry: https://static.texastribune.org/media/files/965725d7f01b8a25ca44b6fde2f5519b/krauseletter.pdf https://static.texastribune.org/media/files/965725d7f01b8a25... EDIT: I learned of one instance of books already being "temporarily" removed by a school board [1] triggered by this inquiry. [1]: https://www.granburyisd.org/site/default.aspx?PageType=3&DomainID=23&ModuleInstanceID=37797&ViewID=6446EE88-D30C-497E-9316-3F8874B3E108&RenderLoc=0&FlexDataID=56433&PageID=22101 https://www.granburyisd.org/site/default.aspx?PageType=3&Dom...
refurb 5y ago

legerdemain 5y ago

This is a sad farce and all, but the reality is that it doesn't take 850 books to educate a child in the humanities. It shouldn't take more than three: - 1984 by George Orwell (born Eric Arthur Blair) -- what evil looks like - The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius -- the "theory" of a good life - Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert Pirsig -- the "practice" of a good life ZAMM can be optionally replaced or supplemented by Jonathan Livingston Seagull by Robert Bach.

klyrs 5y ago
That really is a sad farce. I cannot imagine what my life would be like if there were only three books. You might try reading some more -- humanity is really quite fascinating, and your list only covers an extremely narrow slice.
- legerdemain 5y ago
  You might have as well written "please continue practicing your recorder flute as an adult, it is really quite fascinating." At some point you have read the instructive books you needed to read and solidified the principles you want to live by. Anything after that is whimsical personal recreation, raising the question why we waste money forcing children to do it. Because English teachers believe their little hobby deserves a larger audience?
  - klyrs 5y ago
    In grade 5, I read my first thousand-page book (Pillars of the Earth), and your reading list would have kept me occupied for less than a month. I note your derision towards both music and literature, and pride in the depth of your ignorance. We are very different people, and that's okay, but schools aren't meant to be tailored precisely to you. They exist for all of the other students, too. Some of which will, yes, grow to be English or Music teachers. A random selection of humanities books I enjoyed in middle and high school, which you might enjoy and/or learn from: Guns, Germs and Steel The Art of War A People's History of the United States The Prince Catch-22

ivolimmen 5y ago

There should be no such thing as books that are not allowed to be read. Under any circumstance. Certainly in schools. Students should expand their minds read weird books and discuss them openly. Just like reading Mine Kampf is not banned in the Netherlands (or Germany). Stores however are not allowed to sell it (Dutch Government has the rights to the Dutch translation so disallowing reprints is easy). But even then; I can download the PDF on the net without issues. And I can read it. I can even sell an old copy of the book (if I had one) without repercussions.

FeepingCreature 5y ago
Though amusingly, in Germany - not really for Mein Kampf - but for other extremist propaganda writings, you are not allowed to keep more than three copies. (Since it's then assumed you're storing them for distribution.) Not sure how relevant this still is given the Internet.
- sascha_sl 5y ago
  I'm not sure how you arrived at three copies. Intend to distribute is the only factor actually written into law.
  - freemint 5y ago
    By a judge's ruling probably.
    - sascha_sl 5y ago
      Germany doesn't have case law unless you get to a constitutional court, and even then it only mandates that the parliament fix it within a generous time frame (and they might ignore half of the things said in the ruling, as with the change to 45b PStG).
  - anthony_d 5y ago
    That sounds worse to me. 3 is at least an objective number. Being tried based on intent is always problematic.

moron4hire 5y ago

V for Vendetta is on the list.

JohnGB 5y ago
It's too educational about the true state of the American system and encourages people to do something bad for the US oligarchs, which in the USA is the ultimate evil.
anomosmarxist 5y ago
[dead]

was_a_dev 5y ago

Is the irony lost that such an anti-goverment state, is banning books?

namlem 5y ago
It's not really anti-government, it just likes the aesthetic of being anti-government.
kc0bfv 5y ago
And that the person making these inquiries is a, "founding member of the House Freedom Caucus"? (Thanks @finite_jest for the news article https://www.texastribune.org/2021/10/26/texas-school-books-race-sexuality/ https://www.texastribune.org/2021/10/26/texas-school-books-r...) Unfortunately just like putting "democratic" in your country name - if you have to put "freedom" in your name it's a good sign you are going for anything but.

JohnGB 5y ago

Remember that the Texas GOP had (has?) the following official policy: "We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills, critical thinking skills and similar programs..." So I'm not surprised that they oppose anything to do with a decent education, like a different point of view, but have no problem promoting a book that encourages slavery, rape, genocide, and misogyny. Reference: http://s3.amazonaws.com/texasgop_pre/assets/original/2012Platform_Final.pdf http://s3.amazonaws.com/texasgop_pre/assets/original/2012Pla...

nottorp 5y ago

Funny how both the right and left are trying to burn books in the US...

shankr 5y ago
- dataviz1000 5y ago
  edit: Agreed, there is a difference between a government censoring and private citizens protesting and boycotting.
  - benwad 5y ago
    So... someone wrote an article criticising it? That's not the same as banning it.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - klyrs 5y ago
    Was there a book-burning you meant to link to? Because I just read an article about the exercise of free speech, wherein the twitterati criticized the words of a famous author. What "due process“ do you imagine the government requiring of critical writing?
- finite_jest 5y ago
  In the sense of school boards removing books from curricula, "To Kill a Mockingbird" is a recent example. [1] In the sense of removing books from bookstores, Amazon did ban a broad category of books. [2] In the sense of literally burning books, I'm don't know of any recent instances in the US by either side. But I know of one example in Canada. [3] [1]: https://www.newsweek.com/schools-drop-kill-mockingbird-required-reading-list-1672563 https://www.newsweek.com/schools-drop-kill-mockingbird-requi... [2]: WSJ: "Amazon Won’t Sell Books Framing LGBTQ+ Identities as Mental Illnesses" https://archive.fo/v5rWn https://archive.fo/v5rWn [3]: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/book-burning-at-ontario-francophone-schools-as-gesture-of-reconciliation-denounced https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/book-burning-at-ontario...

eimrine 5y ago

I have expected way more of my favourite books. BTW if somebody has at least half of that books, a magnet link is highly expected.

runeks 5y ago

I flagged this because the linked PDF does not support the claim in the title. I think it would be more appropriate to link to an article that supports the claim.

Freak_NL 5y ago

Tangentially related: “Tennessee school board bans Pulitzer prize-winning Holocaust novel, Maus”¹. Neil Gaiman's reaction on Twitter sums it up nicely: > There's only one kind of people who would vote to ban Maus, whatever they are calling themselves these days.² 1: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/27/tennessee-school-board-bans-pulitzer-prize-winning-holocaust-novel-maus https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/27/tennessee-scho... 2: https://twitter.com/neilhimself/status/1486473393075802112 https://twitter.com/neilhimself/status/1486473393075802112

brokenkebab 5y ago

Headline is misleading, and should be corrected. Not being American I went to look for the context, and the issue is about selection of books for educational system. Not about banning. Whether it is a successful way to shape better students is a interesting question to discuss. But fact is that all taxpayer-funded education all over the world includes selection of books for pupils.

nirse 5y ago

In the Land of the Free...

giords 5y ago

Why did USA start war in Afghanistan? If they were looking for Talibans they could've just peeked in Texas.