5 ms·

Physics is based on what can be measured objectively. In other words the probability could be an approximate description of a real (and perhaps knowable) yet un

Physics is based on what can be measured objectively. In other words the probability could be an approximate description of a real (and perhaps knowable) yet un-objectively-measurable process. The idea "everything that is natural can only be everything we can objectively measure" should be problematic right? Of course whatever out there that is unmeasurable is rife with confusion, messiness, lies etc but that shouldn't mean it doesn't exist at all. The old confounding variables problem. It's silly to believe there must be none, yet that's what the physics = everything worldview amounts to. EDIT: I love Scott Aaronson. Of course he predicted this type of answer explicitly and is looking for a more nuanced one :)

seiferteric 5y ago
Yes you can never rule out the unknown, even the supernatural is in this category. Nevertheless it is just speculation until some evidence that it exists comes about. That being said, even if what I said is true, it does not really effect anything since we still live as if free will exists and I don't think we have the ability to choose differently :)
- srcreigh 5y ago
  I object to the term "supernatural". It means more like "supermaterial" or "super-harnessable-in-an-experiment-by-humans". It has well known limitations. Regarding speculation, that assumes there isn't steps to knowledge about other things which physicists do not take. Any scientist will easily change their mind with the right evidence. The only issue is that the evidence takes place in one's subjective experience. It may take place specifically in contexts where it cannot be convincingly demonstrated to the general population. It sounds silly, but if that's the nature of the object of investigation, it's necessary.
adrianN 5y ago
You seem to suggest some kind of hidden variable theory for free will: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden-variable_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden-variable_theory. As far as I know they're not particularly popular among physicists, although we haven't (completely) ruled out such an explanation.
- srcreigh 5y ago
  Newton and Einstein both seem to be on the side of hidden variables, so I'm not sure if it's unpopular among the elites. I have a lot of trouble imagining any experiment which could completely rule out every other influencing factor. There are silly thought experiments such as what if the world has been objective for the last x00 years - prior to that and after, the laws we've observed during the period would bend; things will become inconsistent. It's silly and I don't even believe it, but it does show that science is incapable of completely ruling out everything. The truth could be endemic mystery. Endemic insanely and terrifyingly simple endless levels of understanding. In a way science is nothing unless that's the reality.
  - guerrilla 5y ago
    > I have a lot of trouble imagining any experiment which could completely rule out every other influencing factor It's called Bell's theorem and it can even be tested at home[4]. There are no local hidden variables in quantum mechanics.[1][2][3] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_theorem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_theorem 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_paradox 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden-variable_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden-variable_theory 4a. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcqZHYo7ONs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcqZHYo7ONs 4b. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzRCDLre1b4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzRCDLre1b4
    - lulantivaxxers 5y ago
      Thanks for this, hidden variable theories are very seductive but Bell's Theorem is definitive.
      - naasking 5y ago
        It's definitive that you have to give up locality (Bohmian mechanics), counterfactual definiteness (Copenhagen and others), or statistical independence (Superdeterminism). It's not definitive at all about local hidden variables.

seiferteric 5y ago

Yes you can never rule out the unknown, even the supernatural is in this category. Nevertheless it is just speculation until some evidence that it exists comes about. That being said, even if what I said is true, it does not really effect anything since we still live as if free will exists and I don't think we have the ability to choose differently :)

srcreigh 5y ago
I object to the term "supernatural". It means more like "supermaterial" or "super-harnessable-in-an-experiment-by-humans". It has well known limitations. Regarding speculation, that assumes there isn't steps to knowledge about other things which physicists do not take. Any scientist will easily change their mind with the right evidence. The only issue is that the evidence takes place in one's subjective experience. It may take place specifically in contexts where it cannot be convincingly demonstrated to the general population. It sounds silly, but if that's the nature of the object of investigation, it's necessary.

adrianN 5y ago

You seem to suggest some kind of hidden variable theory for free will: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden-variable_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden-variable_theory. As far as I know they're not particularly popular among physicists, although we haven't (completely) ruled out such an explanation.

srcreigh 5y ago
Newton and Einstein both seem to be on the side of hidden variables, so I'm not sure if it's unpopular among the elites. I have a lot of trouble imagining any experiment which could completely rule out every other influencing factor. There are silly thought experiments such as what if the world has been objective for the last x00 years - prior to that and after, the laws we've observed during the period would bend; things will become inconsistent. It's silly and I don't even believe it, but it does show that science is incapable of completely ruling out everything. The truth could be endemic mystery. Endemic insanely and terrifyingly simple endless levels of understanding. In a way science is nothing unless that's the reality.
- guerrilla 5y ago
  > I have a lot of trouble imagining any experiment which could completely rule out every other influencing factor It's called Bell's theorem and it can even be tested at home[4]. There are no local hidden variables in quantum mechanics.[1][2][3] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_theorem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_theorem 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_paradox 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden-variable_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden-variable_theory 4a. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcqZHYo7ONs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcqZHYo7ONs 4b. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzRCDLre1b4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzRCDLre1b4
  - lulantivaxxers 5y ago
    Thanks for this, hidden variable theories are very seductive but Bell's Theorem is definitive.
    - naasking 5y ago
      It's definitive that you have to give up locality (Bohmian mechanics), counterfactual definiteness (Copenhagen and others), or statistical independence (Superdeterminism). It's not definitive at all about local hidden variables.