6 ms·

What is FORGE?

65 points by manicennui 5y ago

Dangeranger 5y ago
Tangential, but related point. Centralized deep-well heat pumps could maximize the electricity generated by EGS to utilize the latent heat at around 200-300 feet below the surface, and achieve energy COP in excess of 4.0.
erellsworth 5y ago
"The intent is to use this collaborative site for transformative science that will create a commercial pathway for large-scale, economically viable EGS." So, public funding for commercial interests. Cool cool.
- morning_gelato 5y ago
  Current geothermal technology requires very favorable geological conditions which significantly limits where it can be deployed. If EGS turns out to be both safe and viable it will mean that geothermal power plants can be widely deployed across the globe. I believe this research is also in the public interest as we want clean highly-reliable power, and EGS is one of the few technologies that can potentially provide that.
- oh_sigh 5y ago
  Yes, it is cool. It's not like they're singling out an existing commercial entity and just showering tax dollars on them. They're getting the tech to the point where private companies can run with it. You could chalk up a lot of what NASA had done over the past 50 years as "public funding for commercial interests". Are you against NASA too?
- mandernt 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Dangeranger 5y ago
  Public funding of risky R&D has been a winning strategy since the space race of the 1960s. Many industries would not exist today without this approach.
  - erellsworth 5y ago
    I don't disagree with the approach in general. I just think there's too much selective memory when it comes time for those industries to pay taxes, or be regulated in any way. Then suddenly it's all about the virtues of the mythical free market.
    - SkyMarshal 5y ago
      There should also be a general policy requirement that the government gets say 20% of the equity of any venture based on govt-funded R&D. Currently the govt gets all the downside and no (direct) upside to these things.
      - jspaetzel 5y ago
        Any economic growth helps the government in innumerable ways, the government isn't meant to be a profitable industry with a huge upside.
        cassepipe 5y ago
        It is not meant to be profitable but it is meant (we hope at least) to provide infrastructure for a society in domains that are not profitable for businesses while trying not to extract too much wealth from taxpayers. Maybe it would be a good thing as it would make the state less dependent on being able to get credit at a good rate and thus less dependent on financial institutions. Do you not agree ?
manicennui 5y ago
"Our flagship effort over the next five years is the Frontier Observatory for Research in Geothermal Energy (FORGE) initiative — the first dedicated field site of its kind for testing targeted enhanced geothermal systems (EGS) R&D."
- xendipity 5y ago
  "EGS are engineered reservoirs, created beneath the surface, where there is hot rock but limited pathways through which fluid can flow. During EGS development, the injection of fluid into the hot rock enhances the size and connectivity of fluid pathways by re-opening fractures. Once completed, EGS function just as natural geothermal systems do: fluids circulating through the hot rock carry energy to the surface through wells, driving turbines and generating electricity. EGS could provide up to 100+ GWe of economically viable capacity in the United States. This potential could supply green electricity to over 100,000,000 American homes, and represents a domestic energy source that is clean, reliable, flexible and renewable."
  - IgorPartola 5y ago
    I can see the headlines from 40 years in the future: Geofracking Responsible for Devastation of the State of Tennessee as Record Breaking Earthquake Shakes the Eastern Seaboard” Also how exactly is extracting heat from underground renewable? What exactly renews the constantly cooling core of our planet?
    - martythemaniak 5y ago
      As others have pointed out, nothing is renewable on long enough timelines. The earth will burn out, the sun will burn out, eventually the universe will burn out.
    - Lammy 5y ago
      Try “from 2019” https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30139155 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30139155
    - 5y ago
ZeroGravitas 5y ago
Fracking for geothermal basically. Probably better than fracking for fossil fuels, for multiple reasons, but still a mildly ironic repurposing of the tech.
- fghorow 5y ago
  Regarding "repurposing". You have it backwards. Hydraulic fracturing for geothermal -- then known as Hot Dry Rock, but now called EGS -- has been around in practice since (at least) the 1970s [1]. It's basically the creation of permeable pathways for water to flow through in order to mine the heat. "Fracking" for natural gas took off in 2000's. The essence of the process is the same -- creation of permeable pathways. But many of the more controversial practices (high volume flow, slickwater, heavy use of biocides) are avoided by EGS projects specifically for environmental reasons. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_dry_rock_geothermal_energy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_dry_rock_geothermal_energy
  - beerandt 5y ago
    No- fracking became a known cause du jour in the 2000s, and it benefited from higher oil prices plus multiple advances in the various technologies and geology/ geophysical mapping. But the technology goes back before the 1950s. ETA: Wikipedia says 1947. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fracturing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fracturing
- conradev 5y ago
  Mildly ironic and also a clever way to repurpose existing infrastructure and training
  - Dangeranger 5y ago
    EGS precedes fracking technology by decades.
    - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
alex_young 5y ago
Somewhat similar to the way we currently produce geothermal power in Northern California. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geysers https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geysers
- barney54 5y ago
  The Geysers is one of the handful of places in the US that has all the ingredients—the heat, the water, and the right amount of fractures. Forge is trying to figure out how to enhance geothermal systems so you can have viable geothermal in areas without the favorable subsurface rick features.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/geothermal/where-geothermal-energy-is-found.php https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/geothermal/where-geother...

65 points by manicennui 5y ago

Tangential, but related point. Centralized deep-well heat pumps could maximize the electricity generated by EGS to utilize the latent heat at around 200-300 feet below the surface, and achieve energy COP in excess of 4.0.

erellsworth 5y ago

"The intent is to use this collaborative site for transformative science that will create a commercial pathway for large-scale, economically viable EGS." So, public funding for commercial interests. Cool cool.

morning_gelato 5y ago
Current geothermal technology requires very favorable geological conditions which significantly limits where it can be deployed. If EGS turns out to be both safe and viable it will mean that geothermal power plants can be widely deployed across the globe. I believe this research is also in the public interest as we want clean highly-reliable power, and EGS is one of the few technologies that can potentially provide that.
oh_sigh 5y ago
Yes, it is cool. It's not like they're singling out an existing commercial entity and just showering tax dollars on them. They're getting the tech to the point where private companies can run with it. You could chalk up a lot of what NASA had done over the past 50 years as "public funding for commercial interests". Are you against NASA too?
mandernt 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Dangeranger 5y ago
Public funding of risky R&D has been a winning strategy since the space race of the 1960s. Many industries would not exist today without this approach.
- erellsworth 5y ago
  I don't disagree with the approach in general. I just think there's too much selective memory when it comes time for those industries to pay taxes, or be regulated in any way. Then suddenly it's all about the virtues of the mythical free market.
  - SkyMarshal 5y ago
    There should also be a general policy requirement that the government gets say 20% of the equity of any venture based on govt-funded R&D. Currently the govt gets all the downside and no (direct) upside to these things.
    - jspaetzel 5y ago
      Any economic growth helps the government in innumerable ways, the government isn't meant to be a profitable industry with a huge upside.
      - cassepipe 5y ago
        It is not meant to be profitable but it is meant (we hope at least) to provide infrastructure for a society in domains that are not profitable for businesses while trying not to extract too much wealth from taxpayers. Maybe it would be a good thing as it would make the state less dependent on being able to get credit at a good rate and thus less dependent on financial institutions. Do you not agree ?

manicennui 5y ago

"Our flagship effort over the next five years is the Frontier Observatory for Research in Geothermal Energy (FORGE) initiative — the first dedicated field site of its kind for testing targeted enhanced geothermal systems (EGS) R&D."

xendipity 5y ago
"EGS are engineered reservoirs, created beneath the surface, where there is hot rock but limited pathways through which fluid can flow. During EGS development, the injection of fluid into the hot rock enhances the size and connectivity of fluid pathways by re-opening fractures. Once completed, EGS function just as natural geothermal systems do: fluids circulating through the hot rock carry energy to the surface through wells, driving turbines and generating electricity. EGS could provide up to 100+ GWe of economically viable capacity in the United States. This potential could supply green electricity to over 100,000,000 American homes, and represents a domestic energy source that is clean, reliable, flexible and renewable."
- IgorPartola 5y ago
  I can see the headlines from 40 years in the future: Geofracking Responsible for Devastation of the State of Tennessee as Record Breaking Earthquake Shakes the Eastern Seaboard” Also how exactly is extracting heat from underground renewable? What exactly renews the constantly cooling core of our planet?
  - martythemaniak 5y ago
    As others have pointed out, nothing is renewable on long enough timelines. The earth will burn out, the sun will burn out, eventually the universe will burn out.
  - Lammy 5y ago
    Try “from 2019” https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30139155 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30139155
  - 5y ago

ZeroGravitas 5y ago

Fracking for geothermal basically. Probably better than fracking for fossil fuels, for multiple reasons, but still a mildly ironic repurposing of the tech.

fghorow 5y ago
Regarding "repurposing". You have it backwards. Hydraulic fracturing for geothermal -- then known as Hot Dry Rock, but now called EGS -- has been around in practice since (at least) the 1970s [1]. It's basically the creation of permeable pathways for water to flow through in order to mine the heat. "Fracking" for natural gas took off in 2000's. The essence of the process is the same -- creation of permeable pathways. But many of the more controversial practices (high volume flow, slickwater, heavy use of biocides) are avoided by EGS projects specifically for environmental reasons. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_dry_rock_geothermal_energy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_dry_rock_geothermal_energy
- beerandt 5y ago
  No- fracking became a known cause du jour in the 2000s, and it benefited from higher oil prices plus multiple advances in the various technologies and geology/ geophysical mapping. But the technology goes back before the 1950s. ETA: Wikipedia says 1947. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fracturing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fracturing
conradev 5y ago
Mildly ironic and also a clever way to repurpose existing infrastructure and training
- Dangeranger 5y ago
  EGS precedes fracking technology by decades.
  - ZeroGravitas 5y ago

alex_young 5y ago

Somewhat similar to the way we currently produce geothermal power in Northern California. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geysers https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geysers

barney54 5y ago
The Geysers is one of the handful of places in the US that has all the ingredients—the heat, the water, and the right amount of fractures. Forge is trying to figure out how to enhance geothermal systems so you can have viable geothermal in areas without the favorable subsurface rick features.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/geothermal/where-geothermal-energy-is-found.php https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/geothermal/where-geother...