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I see Brave, Chrome, Firefox, Edge, Opera on their App Store. Are they just shells for Safari or something? Does Firefox on iOS use webkit instead of gecko?

impulser_ 5y ago
I believe they are all just UIs for WebKit. Google can't bring over Blink to iOS, which they use for Chrome on Android.
icelancer 5y ago
> Does Firefox on iOS use webkit instead of gecko? Yes.
jimbob45 5y ago
> Does Firefox on iOS use webkit instead of gecko? They all do. Also only Safari can have extensions. Every other browser is blocked from doing so. Every time I bring this up, I’m told it’s okay because Apple has only 50% market share. I don’t understand why your market share matters when it comes to anti-competitive practices.
- widdershins 5y ago
  Because most of competition law is written such that practices only become illegal when then they demonstrably create or increase a monopoly or dominant market position. [1] The courts don't like to interfere in these practices as long as there's competition in the market. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_antitrust_law#Tying_products https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_antitrust_law#Ty...
  - shmerl 5y ago
    They totally create damage to the market in this case. The fact that courts turned competition law into some toothless tool only highlights the problem.
    - foxfluff 5y ago
      I think the problem is that outdated competition laws stem from an era where a potato is a potato and it doesn't particularly matter whose potato it is that you buy. It completely fails to account for the relatively recent platform lock-in and network effects which dramatically amplify the leverage and impact of the platform owner not only on the end users (who could with great effort choose a different platform and migrate all their data and services) but also the third parties who need access to the platform in order to enter a market.
      - shmerl 5y ago
        I think concepts behind the laws are fine. Courts just don't want to apply them, instead diluting the original idea.
- concinds 5y ago
  Only Safari can have extensions, only Safari can have iOS Content Blockers, only Safari supports Screen Time limits on websites and iOS parental controls, and only Safari is allowed to launch apps (so when you open a Twitter link in Safari, it launches the Twitter app without even asking; but open it in iOS Chrome, it doesn't do anything, and they can't even offer a "Open in Twitter app" button). I'm sure there's a bunch more restrictions that only iOS browser developers would know about. It's ridiculous and means many people who use Chrome as their main desktop browser still use Safari on iOS.
  - bjtitus 5y ago
    > Only Safari can have extensions, only Safari can have iOS Content Blockers, only Safari supports Screen Time limits on websites and iOS parental controls, and only Safari is allowed to launch apps I don't think any of these are strictly limited to Safari. As far as I can tell, every feature you mention could be implemented by the third-party browsers. > Only Safari can have extensions The Orion browser [1] supports extensions, although I suppose the App Store rules could prove to be a problem with executing arbitrary code as it hasn't run through the full review process yet. > only Safari can have iOS Content Blockers Brave blocks content and ads. > only Safari supports Screen Time There is new API [1] for this and I believe everything you mentioned is available to developers, although I haven't used it myself. > only Safari is allowed to launch apps This should be possible to implement by checking the `.well-known/apple-app-site-association/` and calling `openURL:` on matches. It might be difficult to know for sure if some apps were installed or not, but that doesn't seem to be the key issue here. [1]: https://browser.kagi.com https://browser.kagi.com [2]: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/deviceactivity/deviceactivityevent https://developer.apple.com/documentation/deviceactivity/dev...
    - concinds 5y ago
      > I don't think any of these are strictly limited to Safari. As far as I can tell, every feature you mention could be implemented by the third-party browsers. Reimplemented. iOS builds these mechanisms in, but many (seemingly) can't be used by other browsers. > The Orion browser [1] supports extensions, although I suppose the App Store rules could prove to be a problem with executing arbitrary code as it hasn't run through the full review process yet. Safari Extensions, from the iOS App Store, have a UI optimized for iOS/mobile. I tried installing 1Password for desktop Chrome on Kagi mobile, didn't work since it couldn't communicate with the 1Password iOS app (might be a problem on Kagi's end though). 1Password's iOS WebExtension seemingly only works with Safari. > Brave blocks content and ads. Not through iOS Content Blockers; Brave had to reimplement that. BTW, Brave on Android lets you add custom filters, but doesn't on iOS; not sure if that's Apple's fault. > There is new API [1] for this and I believe everything you mentioned is available to developers, although I haven't used it myself. Hadn't seen this, thanks. > This should be possible to implement by checking the `.well-known/apple-app-site-association/` and calling `openURL:` on matches. It might be difficult to know for sure if some apps were installed or not, but that doesn't seem to be the key issue here. Interesting. It's sad though that of all browsers I've tried, none supported this; it's a sad statement on the quality of non-Safari browsers on iOS. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/preparing-your-app-to-be-the-default-browser-or-email-client https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/preparing-yo... > Apps that have the com.apple.developer.web-browser managed entitlement may not claim to respond to Universal Links for specific domains. The system will ignore any such claims. Apps with the entitlement can still open Universal Links to other apps as usual.
ocdtrekkie 5y ago
That's correct. On iOS, all web views are Webkit (Safari). The browser apps largely exist to provide account sync/value adds/UI design.
CSSer 5y ago
Yes. Everything must be Webkit[0]. [0]: https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#2.5.6 https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#2.5...
- ksec 5y ago
  I am surprised in 2022 this basic information still have to be repeated in every single thread on Apple's browser / App Store discussion. On HN. Last time we had someone arguing with a dozens of comment saying he is using a third party browser on his iPhone. Before we finally got to the point and realise he didn't know every iOS browser is based on the same webkit.
  - ComradePhil 5y ago
    https://xkcd.com/1053/ https://xkcd.com/1053/
  - bjtitus 5y ago
    The fact that these browsers exist is very pertinent to the original comment, though. The anti-trust case against Microsoft with IE may have gone very differently if it had been about rendering engines on Windows. This also completely ignores the distinction that it's the App Store which doesn't allow third party rendering engines and not iOS itself (you could create a free developer account and build and run a version of Chrome using Blink if you'd like). So this comes back to the larger question of whether Apple should be allowed to so heavily restrict the installation of software to its own distribution mechanisms.
xxs 5y ago
you can make a browser - but it won't have a JIT for javascript, rendering it useless.

impulser_ 5y ago

I believe they are all just UIs for WebKit. Google can't bring over Blink to iOS, which they use for Chrome on Android.

icelancer 5y ago

> Does Firefox on iOS use webkit instead of gecko? Yes.

jimbob45 5y ago

> Does Firefox on iOS use webkit instead of gecko? They all do. Also only Safari can have extensions. Every other browser is blocked from doing so. Every time I bring this up, I’m told it’s okay because Apple has only 50% market share. I don’t understand why your market share matters when it comes to anti-competitive practices.

widdershins 5y ago
Because most of competition law is written such that practices only become illegal when then they demonstrably create or increase a monopoly or dominant market position. [1] The courts don't like to interfere in these practices as long as there's competition in the market. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_antitrust_law#Tying_products https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_antitrust_law#Ty...
- shmerl 5y ago
  They totally create damage to the market in this case. The fact that courts turned competition law into some toothless tool only highlights the problem.
  - foxfluff 5y ago
    I think the problem is that outdated competition laws stem from an era where a potato is a potato and it doesn't particularly matter whose potato it is that you buy. It completely fails to account for the relatively recent platform lock-in and network effects which dramatically amplify the leverage and impact of the platform owner not only on the end users (who could with great effort choose a different platform and migrate all their data and services) but also the third parties who need access to the platform in order to enter a market.
    - shmerl 5y ago
      I think concepts behind the laws are fine. Courts just don't want to apply them, instead diluting the original idea.
concinds 5y ago
Only Safari can have extensions, only Safari can have iOS Content Blockers, only Safari supports Screen Time limits on websites and iOS parental controls, and only Safari is allowed to launch apps (so when you open a Twitter link in Safari, it launches the Twitter app without even asking; but open it in iOS Chrome, it doesn't do anything, and they can't even offer a "Open in Twitter app" button). I'm sure there's a bunch more restrictions that only iOS browser developers would know about. It's ridiculous and means many people who use Chrome as their main desktop browser still use Safari on iOS.
- bjtitus 5y ago
  > Only Safari can have extensions, only Safari can have iOS Content Blockers, only Safari supports Screen Time limits on websites and iOS parental controls, and only Safari is allowed to launch apps I don't think any of these are strictly limited to Safari. As far as I can tell, every feature you mention could be implemented by the third-party browsers. > Only Safari can have extensions The Orion browser [1] supports extensions, although I suppose the App Store rules could prove to be a problem with executing arbitrary code as it hasn't run through the full review process yet. > only Safari can have iOS Content Blockers Brave blocks content and ads. > only Safari supports Screen Time There is new API [1] for this and I believe everything you mentioned is available to developers, although I haven't used it myself. > only Safari is allowed to launch apps This should be possible to implement by checking the `.well-known/apple-app-site-association/` and calling `openURL:` on matches. It might be difficult to know for sure if some apps were installed or not, but that doesn't seem to be the key issue here. [1]: https://browser.kagi.com https://browser.kagi.com [2]: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/deviceactivity/deviceactivityevent https://developer.apple.com/documentation/deviceactivity/dev...
  - concinds 5y ago
    > I don't think any of these are strictly limited to Safari. As far as I can tell, every feature you mention could be implemented by the third-party browsers. Reimplemented. iOS builds these mechanisms in, but many (seemingly) can't be used by other browsers. > The Orion browser [1] supports extensions, although I suppose the App Store rules could prove to be a problem with executing arbitrary code as it hasn't run through the full review process yet. Safari Extensions, from the iOS App Store, have a UI optimized for iOS/mobile. I tried installing 1Password for desktop Chrome on Kagi mobile, didn't work since it couldn't communicate with the 1Password iOS app (might be a problem on Kagi's end though). 1Password's iOS WebExtension seemingly only works with Safari. > Brave blocks content and ads. Not through iOS Content Blockers; Brave had to reimplement that. BTW, Brave on Android lets you add custom filters, but doesn't on iOS; not sure if that's Apple's fault. > There is new API [1] for this and I believe everything you mentioned is available to developers, although I haven't used it myself. Hadn't seen this, thanks. > This should be possible to implement by checking the `.well-known/apple-app-site-association/` and calling `openURL:` on matches. It might be difficult to know for sure if some apps were installed or not, but that doesn't seem to be the key issue here. Interesting. It's sad though that of all browsers I've tried, none supported this; it's a sad statement on the quality of non-Safari browsers on iOS. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/preparing-your-app-to-be-the-default-browser-or-email-client https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/preparing-yo... > Apps that have the com.apple.developer.web-browser managed entitlement may not claim to respond to Universal Links for specific domains. The system will ignore any such claims. Apps with the entitlement can still open Universal Links to other apps as usual.

ocdtrekkie 5y ago

That's correct. On iOS, all web views are Webkit (Safari). The browser apps largely exist to provide account sync/value adds/UI design.

CSSer 5y ago

Yes. Everything must be Webkit[0]. [0]: https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#2.5.6 https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#2.5...

ksec 5y ago
I am surprised in 2022 this basic information still have to be repeated in every single thread on Apple's browser / App Store discussion. On HN. Last time we had someone arguing with a dozens of comment saying he is using a third party browser on his iPhone. Before we finally got to the point and realise he didn't know every iOS browser is based on the same webkit.
- ComradePhil 5y ago
  https://xkcd.com/1053/ https://xkcd.com/1053/
- bjtitus 5y ago
  The fact that these browsers exist is very pertinent to the original comment, though. The anti-trust case against Microsoft with IE may have gone very differently if it had been about rendering engines on Windows. This also completely ignores the distinction that it's the App Store which doesn't allow third party rendering engines and not iOS itself (you could create a free developer account and build and run a version of Chrome using Blink if you'd like). So this comes back to the larger question of whether Apple should be allowed to so heavily restrict the installation of software to its own distribution mechanisms.

xxs 5y ago

you can make a browser - but it won't have a JIT for javascript, rendering it useless.