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Given Epic's premeditated nature of the initial contract break, and subsequent media campaign, I wouldn't rule out this is just the second wave of Epic's persua

Given Epic's premeditated nature of the initial contract break, and subsequent media campaign, I wouldn't rule out this is just the second wave of Epic's persuasion war. Apple just seems to be an odd foe for the U.S. to fight in this area. I'll get the tin foil.

jjcon 5y ago
> Apple just seems to be an odd foe for the U.S. to fight in this area. Apple? The largest company in the world? A company 7x larger than walmart? Why would it at all be odd to accuse them on antitrust grounds.
- boardwaalk 5y ago
  Apple is power (money) and influence for the US, and there is increasing geopolitical tension. It's pretty easy to see this as shooting yourself in the foot.
  - arvinsim 5y ago
    Playing favorites will look odd in a supposedly free market.
  - javajosh 5y ago
    I am increasingly astounded at the creativity with which people find reasons to NOT hold power to account. This is a good one: because to hold a US business to account is to weaken the US. And the situation is so "tense" right now, how can we afford it? Is there anyone who actually believes this argument, and if they do, do they understand it implies that one should never hold a US firm to account, since there is always geopolitical tension? (The other one is the so-called "prosperity gospel" - basically, the rich and powerful could only possibly get that way if they were good and Godly people. Wealth and power become evidence for goodness! Incredible!)
    - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
      seems basically a restatement of the whole what's good for GM is good for America misquote https://blogs.loc.gov/inside_adams/2016/04/when-a-quote-is-not-exactly-a-quote-general-motors/ https://blogs.loc.gov/inside_adams/2016/04/when-a-quote-is-n... which is anyway from a different time when all of a company's production was centered in the country they headquartered at.
  - r_hoods_ghost 5y ago
    The thing about transnational corporations like Apple is that due to their size they are, to some extent, independent of the diktats of any one state like the US. While the usual power relationship between the state and a corporation is, roughly speaking, obey the law or we will dissolve you and lock up your executives, that relationship is less clear when it comes to a company such as Apple. This is due to two reasons. First its' transnational nature means it is not wholly reliant on remaining on the good side of a single state for its continued existence and income, and secondly the state itself comes to rely on the transnational corporation to provide employment, resources and expertise by way of its products, and tax revenues because of its' outsize nature. The result of this is that states find it difficult to wield corporations as tools in geopolitical conflicts and, at the margins, find themselves being wielded. There is thus a tension between the state's need to protect transnationals and promote their interests, and its' need to protect itself (and secondarily its citizen consumers) from their depredations. Actions such as this can be seen within this context. It is partly about protecting citizen consumers from the predatory behaviour of transnational corporations, but it is also about protecting the state and its ability to act independent of the interests of corporations. Finally the state itself is a consumer and has interests as such.
    - emodendroket 5y ago
      I keep losing track of if they're supposed to be so powerful they answer to no one, or so cowed that they're going to get me extradited to China and sent to jail for life for looking at Winnie the Pooh cartoons.
      - r_hoods_ghost 5y ago
        Neither. Both. They exist in a state of constant negotiation with their hosts, driven by the corporate equivalent of a survival instinct.
        ben_w 5y ago
        I wonder how they compare to the power of the British East India Company at various points in the latter’s history?
  - Barrin92 5y ago
    Any country, including the US, would do well to not swallow up the propaganda of the big tech PR departments, using foreign nations as an excuse to prop up national oligarchs. What's best for any country is creating a healthy ecosystem that is long term competitive. We already went through 20 years of shitty cars because of Japan scares in the 80s, wasn't that enough?
    - pininja 5y ago
      I wasn’t alive in the 80s, what are you referring too?
      - Barrin92 5y ago
        in the late 70s/early 80s fueled by the oil crisis initially, the American car industry went into pretty steep decline and together with political fears of a rapidly growing Japan the US started to cap the imports of Japanese cars (also motorcycles and punitive measures on other industries) given that they were fuel efficient and appealed to consumers. The American auto industry became more profitable short term but generally up until the late 90s continued to stagnate or decline in particular in quality and efficiency. American cars had a bad rep internationally (and domestically) probably until the mid 2000s when the industry started to become more competitive again. Today Tesla is probably one example of an American carmaker that is innovative and I doubt you'll see them demand protectionist measures. International competition remains one of the best drivers for better products.
        MagnumOpus 5y ago
        > Today Tesla is probably one example of an American carmaker that is innovative and I doubt you'll see them demand protectionist measures For certain values of "American carmaker". It already manufactures more cars in Shanghai than in Fremont, it is controlled by a South African who is certainly not beholden to US interests, and whenever convenient can do a tax inversion to move abroad easily...
  - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
    > Apple is power (money) and influence for the US, and there is increasing geopolitical tension. They're an international company. Apple has already demonstrated a willingness to bow to pressure from China and censor apps etc. China is where their manufacturing and supply chain is, and the consumer market in China is nearly as big as it is in the US. So it seems more of a liability than a benefit in a geopolitical conflict.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    This argument has a some seriously fascist-y flavour, 'oh no we can't hold people on powerr to account for commiting crime, the time is not right" What is there gonna be no geoopolitical tension, in 20 years? Untill then theybcan get away with murder?
monocasa 5y ago
> Given Epic's premeditated nature of the initial contract break That's how a lawsuit would have to work, the courts don't typically like ruling on hypotheticals between two private entities.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  Fun related fact. Cases where a law is violated specifically to seek a precedent on appeal is sometimes called a test case. Tons of famous civil rights litigation were test cases where one or both of the parties purposefully sought an unfavorable verdict in order to appeal. Plessy v. Ferguson, the Scopes Trial, and Brown vs. Board of Education were all test cases. IIRC the legal community used to kind of dislike these, and I think there might have been a penalty for doing it. But obviously that’s no more
- AaronFriel 5y ago
  Indeed, there has to be per the "case or controversy" clause of the constitution. For a plaintiff to meet standing, there must be an "injury in fact". Epic must violate Apple's terms of use in order to be injured by the application of them, in order for Epic to have standing to allege those terms are an abuse of monopoly power.
  - nodamage 5y ago
    That is incorrect, the 30% that Epic was paying Apple was sufficient to establish standing, they did not need to break the contract on top of that. The judge said so herself during the trial.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
  Right. Typically you have to show that you were harmed.

jjcon 5y ago

> Apple just seems to be an odd foe for the U.S. to fight in this area. Apple? The largest company in the world? A company 7x larger than walmart? Why would it at all be odd to accuse them on antitrust grounds.

boardwaalk 5y ago
Apple is power (money) and influence for the US, and there is increasing geopolitical tension. It's pretty easy to see this as shooting yourself in the foot.
- arvinsim 5y ago
  Playing favorites will look odd in a supposedly free market.
- javajosh 5y ago
  I am increasingly astounded at the creativity with which people find reasons to NOT hold power to account. This is a good one: because to hold a US business to account is to weaken the US. And the situation is so "tense" right now, how can we afford it? Is there anyone who actually believes this argument, and if they do, do they understand it implies that one should never hold a US firm to account, since there is always geopolitical tension? (The other one is the so-called "prosperity gospel" - basically, the rich and powerful could only possibly get that way if they were good and Godly people. Wealth and power become evidence for goodness! Incredible!)
  - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
    seems basically a restatement of the whole what's good for GM is good for America misquote https://blogs.loc.gov/inside_adams/2016/04/when-a-quote-is-not-exactly-a-quote-general-motors/ https://blogs.loc.gov/inside_adams/2016/04/when-a-quote-is-n... which is anyway from a different time when all of a company's production was centered in the country they headquartered at.
- r_hoods_ghost 5y ago
  The thing about transnational corporations like Apple is that due to their size they are, to some extent, independent of the diktats of any one state like the US. While the usual power relationship between the state and a corporation is, roughly speaking, obey the law or we will dissolve you and lock up your executives, that relationship is less clear when it comes to a company such as Apple. This is due to two reasons. First its' transnational nature means it is not wholly reliant on remaining on the good side of a single state for its continued existence and income, and secondly the state itself comes to rely on the transnational corporation to provide employment, resources and expertise by way of its products, and tax revenues because of its' outsize nature. The result of this is that states find it difficult to wield corporations as tools in geopolitical conflicts and, at the margins, find themselves being wielded. There is thus a tension between the state's need to protect transnationals and promote their interests, and its' need to protect itself (and secondarily its citizen consumers) from their depredations. Actions such as this can be seen within this context. It is partly about protecting citizen consumers from the predatory behaviour of transnational corporations, but it is also about protecting the state and its ability to act independent of the interests of corporations. Finally the state itself is a consumer and has interests as such.
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    I keep losing track of if they're supposed to be so powerful they answer to no one, or so cowed that they're going to get me extradited to China and sent to jail for life for looking at Winnie the Pooh cartoons.
    - r_hoods_ghost 5y ago
      Neither. Both. They exist in a state of constant negotiation with their hosts, driven by the corporate equivalent of a survival instinct.
      - ben_w 5y ago
        I wonder how they compare to the power of the British East India Company at various points in the latter’s history?
- Barrin92 5y ago
  Any country, including the US, would do well to not swallow up the propaganda of the big tech PR departments, using foreign nations as an excuse to prop up national oligarchs. What's best for any country is creating a healthy ecosystem that is long term competitive. We already went through 20 years of shitty cars because of Japan scares in the 80s, wasn't that enough?
  - pininja 5y ago
    I wasn’t alive in the 80s, what are you referring too?
    - Barrin92 5y ago
      in the late 70s/early 80s fueled by the oil crisis initially, the American car industry went into pretty steep decline and together with political fears of a rapidly growing Japan the US started to cap the imports of Japanese cars (also motorcycles and punitive measures on other industries) given that they were fuel efficient and appealed to consumers. The American auto industry became more profitable short term but generally up until the late 90s continued to stagnate or decline in particular in quality and efficiency. American cars had a bad rep internationally (and domestically) probably until the mid 2000s when the industry started to become more competitive again. Today Tesla is probably one example of an American carmaker that is innovative and I doubt you'll see them demand protectionist measures. International competition remains one of the best drivers for better products.
      - MagnumOpus 5y ago
        > Today Tesla is probably one example of an American carmaker that is innovative and I doubt you'll see them demand protectionist measures For certain values of "American carmaker". It already manufactures more cars in Shanghai than in Fremont, it is controlled by a South African who is certainly not beholden to US interests, and whenever convenient can do a tax inversion to move abroad easily...
- AnthonyMouse 5y ago
  > Apple is power (money) and influence for the US, and there is increasing geopolitical tension. They're an international company. Apple has already demonstrated a willingness to bow to pressure from China and censor apps etc. China is where their manufacturing and supply chain is, and the consumer market in China is nearly as big as it is in the US. So it seems more of a liability than a benefit in a geopolitical conflict.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  This argument has a some seriously fascist-y flavour, 'oh no we can't hold people on powerr to account for commiting crime, the time is not right" What is there gonna be no geoopolitical tension, in 20 years? Untill then theybcan get away with murder?

monocasa 5y ago

> Given Epic's premeditated nature of the initial contract break That's how a lawsuit would have to work, the courts don't typically like ruling on hypotheticals between two private entities.

ashtonkem 5y ago
Fun related fact. Cases where a law is violated specifically to seek a precedent on appeal is sometimes called a test case. Tons of famous civil rights litigation were test cases where one or both of the parties purposefully sought an unfavorable verdict in order to appeal. Plessy v. Ferguson, the Scopes Trial, and Brown vs. Board of Education were all test cases. IIRC the legal community used to kind of dislike these, and I think there might have been a penalty for doing it. But obviously that’s no more
AaronFriel 5y ago
Indeed, there has to be per the "case or controversy" clause of the constitution. For a plaintiff to meet standing, there must be an "injury in fact". Epic must violate Apple's terms of use in order to be injured by the application of them, in order for Epic to have standing to allege those terms are an abuse of monopoly power.
- nodamage 5y ago
  That is incorrect, the 30% that Epic was paying Apple was sufficient to establish standing, they did not need to break the contract on top of that. The judge said so herself during the trial.
2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
Right. Typically you have to show that you were harmed.