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Orwell vs Huxley seems to be the lens of how people react to what is done to them. I'm more interested in why those in power do those things in the first place.

Orwell vs Huxley seems to be the lens of how people react to what is done to them. I'm more interested in why those in power do those things in the first place. The article points to the students as if they have power, I don't think they do, they're trapped in a system and reacting to it as pretty much any young human would do in the same position. Possibly my favorite example of the powerful impressing a way of life on a huge number of people is the diplomatic sealed train the Germans used to send Lenin from Switzerland to Russia. i.e. the Russian Revolution was an intentional act done to it by cynical Germans who correctly expected the outcome would help them in the war. And the rest is history.

pydry 5y ago
Power is a hell of a drug.
madrox 5y ago
After reading Dune and also being an engineering leader, I’ve come to view power as multivariate. In some ways you have less power when you’re in charge. To go with your example, many other countries didn’t see a choice in getting involved in WW1.
- cjbgkagh 5y ago
  One of my takeaways from 1984 is that those who are supposedly in charge are slaves to a self perpetuating emergent behavior. It often feels like it is never a choice. How much of politics is decided by Henry Kissinger and his disciples (e.g. Klaus Schwab - Davos) carrying on the tradition of realpolitik.
  - spaetzleesser 5y ago
    “those who are supposedly in charge are slaves to a self perpetuating emergent behavior” That describes most of society and for sure a lot of companies. A lot of people realize that something is not right but they still stay confined within that framework.
  - madrox 5y ago
    “Self perpetuating emergent behavior” is the best summary I’ve ever heard of this phenomenon
  - native_samples 5y ago
    Big Brother wasn't self perpetuating though. The book is mostly about the enormous efforts and manipulations required to sustain it.
    - cjbgkagh 5y ago
      The emergent behavior in this example includes big brother and those who perpetuate it. Just because something is costly doesn’t mean it can’t ensure it’s continued existence.
NikolaeVarius 5y ago
> i.e. the Russian Revolution was an intentional act done to it by cynical Germans who correctly expected the outcome would help them in the war. Claiming that Germany caused the Russian Revolution via the sole act of sending him back to Russia is not true. While it is true that Lenin ultimately led the Bolsheviks to power, the reason Germany even thought about sending Lenin back was that Russia was already on the brink of collapse due to reasons a mile long and Germany was throwing shit against the wall to hasten Russian collapse. Claiming a revolution of an entire country was caused by a single person is a bit much.
- cjbgkagh 5y ago
  No such claim, it was over 30 exiles, and I suspect were also given large amounts of money and weapons. It’s a murky area of history, I haven’t dug deep enough to be able to authenticate supposed forgeries etc. but prima facie it would make sense.
ashtonkem 5y ago
Sending Lenin to Russia wasn’t about causing a revolution, that had actually already happened, but it was about trying to affect who would win the following fight for power.

pydry 5y ago

Power is a hell of a drug.

madrox 5y ago

After reading Dune and also being an engineering leader, I’ve come to view power as multivariate. In some ways you have less power when you’re in charge. To go with your example, many other countries didn’t see a choice in getting involved in WW1.

cjbgkagh 5y ago
One of my takeaways from 1984 is that those who are supposedly in charge are slaves to a self perpetuating emergent behavior. It often feels like it is never a choice. How much of politics is decided by Henry Kissinger and his disciples (e.g. Klaus Schwab - Davos) carrying on the tradition of realpolitik.
- spaetzleesser 5y ago
  “those who are supposedly in charge are slaves to a self perpetuating emergent behavior” That describes most of society and for sure a lot of companies. A lot of people realize that something is not right but they still stay confined within that framework.
- madrox 5y ago
  “Self perpetuating emergent behavior” is the best summary I’ve ever heard of this phenomenon
- native_samples 5y ago
  Big Brother wasn't self perpetuating though. The book is mostly about the enormous efforts and manipulations required to sustain it.
  - cjbgkagh 5y ago
    The emergent behavior in this example includes big brother and those who perpetuate it. Just because something is costly doesn’t mean it can’t ensure it’s continued existence.

NikolaeVarius 5y ago

> i.e. the Russian Revolution was an intentional act done to it by cynical Germans who correctly expected the outcome would help them in the war. Claiming that Germany caused the Russian Revolution via the sole act of sending him back to Russia is not true. While it is true that Lenin ultimately led the Bolsheviks to power, the reason Germany even thought about sending Lenin back was that Russia was already on the brink of collapse due to reasons a mile long and Germany was throwing shit against the wall to hasten Russian collapse. Claiming a revolution of an entire country was caused by a single person is a bit much.

cjbgkagh 5y ago
No such claim, it was over 30 exiles, and I suspect were also given large amounts of money and weapons. It’s a murky area of history, I haven’t dug deep enough to be able to authenticate supposed forgeries etc. but prima facie it would make sense.

ashtonkem 5y ago

Sending Lenin to Russia wasn’t about causing a revolution, that had actually already happened, but it was about trying to affect who would win the following fight for power.