5 ms·

> you never blame yourself for buying Apple I do, latest macs have terrible linux compatibility for now, with apple not doing much to help in providing support

> you never blame yourself for buying Apple I do, latest macs have terrible linux compatibility for now, with apple not doing much to help in providing support for it (M1) They keep fixing and breaking their keyboards, the latest macs are better in this aspect but until even 2 yrs ago, they used to break quite frequently Apple making it so hard to develop ios apps on a non apple device, definitely brings additional pain, I don’t want to use apple for my computer. Saying it as someone who really enjoys using the iphone. I get why people like macbooks so much, but saying “You never blame yourself for buying Apple” is untrue For me, that would stand for thinkpads and even then primarily for the older ones.

klelatti 5y ago
I was making a general point about an analogy with ‘never get fired for buying IBM’ - which of course wasn’t 100% true either. I get it that Apple products aren’t perfect but in general for most consumers it’s a safe bet.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  And IBM lost that status after they decided to tank the relative quality of their product. I presume Apple will suffer the same fate.
  - danaris 5y ago
    People have been presuming this very loudly for basically Apple's entire lifetime. I'm not saying I think they'll keep going forever, but I really don't think you should hold your breath.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      Yes, I did not mean to imply that Apple is or will be on a downward trajectory soon, just that as IBM was once seem infallible and now not, Apple will be too.
  - klelatti 5y ago
    IBM lost their status because the centre of gravity of the computing world moved on, not because of any product quality issues.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      Not selling what people want is a better way to phrase it.
      - klelatti 5y ago
        Right and the think it’s very likely that Apple will remain a very big player in smartphones for a long time - even today IBM dominates mainframes even if no one really cares.
  - nomel 5y ago
    > I presume Apple will suffer the same fate. Why? Has there been any trend to indicate they're headed in this direction?
    - teitoklien 5y ago
      The quality of ios has been reducing a lot recently, Sure it has been getting a whole lot of very nice features, but ios has been visibly buggy recently to the point where if I don’t reboot my phone atleast once every 5-6 weeks, bugs start appearing constantly, From glitching of settings app to outright daily crashes of the settings app , to safari acting weirdly, to the home screen’s app drawer vanishing suddenly or the search function vanishing. Etc, etc. (I’m on a stable modern ios version)
    - smoldesu 5y ago
      Their software quality has kinda been tanking over the past few years. Pretty much everything after Mojave has started to slide in the "please don't do this" direction (at least for me), and with Apple Silicon I really no longer have any need for a Mac. I do get where the parent comment is coming from. Commodification of technology can only go so far, and Apple is walking down the same path IBM (or even Microsoft, for that matter) did to learn that lesson.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      I didn’t write that properly. I meant I expect Apple to eventually get dethroned, just like IBM was. Not that it is currently on a downward trajectory.
cassianoleal 5y ago
> apple not doing much to help in providing support for it (M1) marcan (lead dev of Asahi Linux) seems to disagree: Looks like Apple changed the requirements for Mach-O kernel files in 12.1, breaking our existing installation process... and they *also* added a raw image mode that will never break again and doesn't require Mach-Os. And people said they wouldn't help. This is intended for us. https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1471799568807636994 https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1471799568807636994
- smoldesu 5y ago
  It's funny how people come out to celebrate in droves when Apple does the bare minimum to not break their own tooling. Another equally likely scenario is that their changes broke internal tooling, and so they added the raw image mode to give Mac engineers a more reliable entry point for prototyping and testing on the new devices. Regardless, when my mail carrier changes their route to get to my house 30 minutes faster I don't take it as some sort of sign that the UPS cares about me more than the others. It seems more likely to me that Apple saw the logistical value in not breaking their own kernel requirements with every release, and that happens to be serendipitous with the greater development community as a whole. If Apple wanted to help the Linux community, we would know because they'd be releasing UNIX kernel blobs so people wouldn't be forced to spend years re-writing code that already exists. But of course, that's not how their industry works. If Torvalds gave Nvidia just one middle finger for their treatment of Linux, it's hard to imagine how many he'd like to give Apple these days.
  - messe 5y ago
    I think a lot of people are seriously overestimating the amount of work non-apple hardware manufacturers put into linux support, and have also become far too accustomed to 30+ years of IBM PC backwards compatibility.
    - wtallis 5y ago
      Also, people are underestimating how much Microsoft and Intel keep doing to break core features of their platforms. They've shipped some truly awful breakage in storage interfaces and power management in recent years: poorly thought-out incompatible changes with little or no public documentation, shipped by OEMs in a state that doesn't even work well enough with Windows to justify all the trouble.

klelatti 5y ago

I was making a general point about an analogy with ‘never get fired for buying IBM’ - which of course wasn’t 100% true either. I get it that Apple products aren’t perfect but in general for most consumers it’s a safe bet.

lotsofpulp 5y ago
And IBM lost that status after they decided to tank the relative quality of their product. I presume Apple will suffer the same fate.
- danaris 5y ago
  People have been presuming this very loudly for basically Apple's entire lifetime. I'm not saying I think they'll keep going forever, but I really don't think you should hold your breath.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    Yes, I did not mean to imply that Apple is or will be on a downward trajectory soon, just that as IBM was once seem infallible and now not, Apple will be too.
- klelatti 5y ago
  IBM lost their status because the centre of gravity of the computing world moved on, not because of any product quality issues.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    Not selling what people want is a better way to phrase it.
    - klelatti 5y ago
      Right and the think it’s very likely that Apple will remain a very big player in smartphones for a long time - even today IBM dominates mainframes even if no one really cares.
- nomel 5y ago
  > I presume Apple will suffer the same fate. Why? Has there been any trend to indicate they're headed in this direction?
  - teitoklien 5y ago
    The quality of ios has been reducing a lot recently, Sure it has been getting a whole lot of very nice features, but ios has been visibly buggy recently to the point where if I don’t reboot my phone atleast once every 5-6 weeks, bugs start appearing constantly, From glitching of settings app to outright daily crashes of the settings app , to safari acting weirdly, to the home screen’s app drawer vanishing suddenly or the search function vanishing. Etc, etc. (I’m on a stable modern ios version)
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    Their software quality has kinda been tanking over the past few years. Pretty much everything after Mojave has started to slide in the "please don't do this" direction (at least for me), and with Apple Silicon I really no longer have any need for a Mac. I do get where the parent comment is coming from. Commodification of technology can only go so far, and Apple is walking down the same path IBM (or even Microsoft, for that matter) did to learn that lesson.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    I didn’t write that properly. I meant I expect Apple to eventually get dethroned, just like IBM was. Not that it is currently on a downward trajectory.

cassianoleal 5y ago

> apple not doing much to help in providing support for it (M1) marcan (lead dev of Asahi Linux) seems to disagree: Looks like Apple changed the requirements for Mach-O kernel files in 12.1, breaking our existing installation process... and they *also* added a raw image mode that will never break again and doesn't require Mach-Os. And people said they wouldn't help. This is intended for us. https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1471799568807636994 https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1471799568807636994

smoldesu 5y ago
It's funny how people come out to celebrate in droves when Apple does the bare minimum to not break their own tooling. Another equally likely scenario is that their changes broke internal tooling, and so they added the raw image mode to give Mac engineers a more reliable entry point for prototyping and testing on the new devices. Regardless, when my mail carrier changes their route to get to my house 30 minutes faster I don't take it as some sort of sign that the UPS cares about me more than the others. It seems more likely to me that Apple saw the logistical value in not breaking their own kernel requirements with every release, and that happens to be serendipitous with the greater development community as a whole. If Apple wanted to help the Linux community, we would know because they'd be releasing UNIX kernel blobs so people wouldn't be forced to spend years re-writing code that already exists. But of course, that's not how their industry works. If Torvalds gave Nvidia just one middle finger for their treatment of Linux, it's hard to imagine how many he'd like to give Apple these days.
- messe 5y ago
  I think a lot of people are seriously overestimating the amount of work non-apple hardware manufacturers put into linux support, and have also become far too accustomed to 30+ years of IBM PC backwards compatibility.
  - wtallis 5y ago
    Also, people are underestimating how much Microsoft and Intel keep doing to break core features of their platforms. They've shipped some truly awful breakage in storage interfaces and power management in recent years: poorly thought-out incompatible changes with little or no public documentation, shipped by OEMs in a state that doesn't even work well enough with Windows to justify all the trouble.