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The problem is browsers. On desktop you can keep expanding a framework as much as you want, for decades. Even 30MB is nothing. When we have more transparent co

The problem is browsers. On desktop you can keep expanding a framework as much as you want, for decades. Even 30MB is nothing. When we have more transparent compression in filesystems it will natter even less. Browsers are still stuck in the age of every kilobyte mattering, but we try to use them for 21st century things. Not a reuse friendly environment. This should be ideally fixed on the browser end I think. React and Vue and all the rest could fly to Google and have a big meeting on what to add to browsers that would make it possible to implement all these frameworks in 1k of code. With more core language support, maybe we could finally have things like Qt and GTK, mature continually maintained libraries that have everything you need and are just there, without you having to worry about the code size.

frogperson 5y ago
I have always wondered why there isn't more hacking on the browser side of the web. Why don't we see attempts to replace javascript with python or lua or something diifferent? Why not replace http or html? I guess what I'm asking is, what could the web be if we take a step back and re-evaluate javascript at all instead of just the frameworks that rely on JS?
- vagrantJin 5y ago
  Quite simply because HTML and JS work and works well for what it was intended. Your suggestion is like trying to make an F1 car from a Diesel locomotive. There should be another app, with an altogether different protocol to suit current needs because clearly, we are going to end up with browsers as Operating systems.
  - eternityforest 5y ago
    Browser sandboxing currently seems to work, users vaugely have a sense of how to avoid hacking on the web. A new protocol would have a lot of catching up to do, and would probably just be... a modified browser, because browsers are amazing at GUI stuff. Browsers as OSes work fine, aside from the fact that all the advanced features aren't real standards, and everyone other than Google tries to kill them, so you can never be sure what's going to get deprecated later.
- eternityforest 5y ago
  Browser makers do not want you to do this. Or at the very least, not enough to want to help you. Plugins are no longer a thing except for the mostly useless extensions that are only a few steps above a bookmarklet. As far as I'm concerned,HTML is the best thing we have ever had to represent basically anything that goes on a screen, but HTTP isn't great for some use cases, mostly because of TLS. Beaker Browser is making a good effort, but I don't really consider any web technology usable till it has mobile support, and I don't like Hypercore's use of append only logs instead of being truly mutable-first.

frogperson 5y ago

I have always wondered why there isn't more hacking on the browser side of the web. Why don't we see attempts to replace javascript with python or lua or something diifferent? Why not replace http or html? I guess what I'm asking is, what could the web be if we take a step back and re-evaluate javascript at all instead of just the frameworks that rely on JS?

vagrantJin 5y ago
Quite simply because HTML and JS work and works well for what it was intended. Your suggestion is like trying to make an F1 car from a Diesel locomotive. There should be another app, with an altogether different protocol to suit current needs because clearly, we are going to end up with browsers as Operating systems.
- eternityforest 5y ago
  Browser sandboxing currently seems to work, users vaugely have a sense of how to avoid hacking on the web. A new protocol would have a lot of catching up to do, and would probably just be... a modified browser, because browsers are amazing at GUI stuff. Browsers as OSes work fine, aside from the fact that all the advanced features aren't real standards, and everyone other than Google tries to kill them, so you can never be sure what's going to get deprecated later.
eternityforest 5y ago
Browser makers do not want you to do this. Or at the very least, not enough to want to help you. Plugins are no longer a thing except for the mostly useless extensions that are only a few steps above a bookmarklet. As far as I'm concerned,HTML is the best thing we have ever had to represent basically anything that goes on a screen, but HTTP isn't great for some use cases, mostly because of TLS. Beaker Browser is making a good effort, but I don't really consider any web technology usable till it has mobile support, and I don't like Hypercore's use of append only logs instead of being truly mutable-first.