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The documentary Into Eternity is a very fascinating look into the kind of longtermist questions that must be answered for a project like this, like: how do you

The documentary Into Eternity is a very fascinating look into the kind of longtermist questions that must be answered for a project like this, like: how do you write warning signs that are supposed to be read 50k years from now, warning not to open the storage vault? What kind of language do you use? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Into_Eternity_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Into_Eternity_(film)

agency 5y ago
I remember reading about this a long time ago at [1]. They had a panel come up with the essential message they want to communicate which I found really interesting and chilling: > This place is a message… and part of a system of messages… pay attention to it! Sending this message was important to us. We considered ourselves to be a powerful culture. > This place is not a place of honor…no highly esteemed deed is commemorated here… nothing valued is here. > What is here is dangerous and repulsive to us. This message is a warning about danger. > The danger is in a particular location… it increases toward a center… the center of danger is here… of a particular size and shape, and below us. > The danger is still present, in your time, as it was in ours. > The danger is to the body, and it can kill. > The form of the danger is an emanation of energy. > The danger is unleashed only if you substantially disturb this place physically. This place is best shunned and left uninhabited. [1]: https://www.damninteresting.com/this-place-is-not-a-place-of-honor/ https://www.damninteresting.com/this-place-is-not-a-place-of...
- reedjosh 5y ago
  How could I ever sleep again if I was investigating a ruin and read that message. I'd have to dig into it. It'd be like `Well, we warned you...` but that message is too intriguing.
- periheli0n 5y ago
  This sounds like the beginning of an Indiana Jones knockoff! He will dig after reading this, for sure!
pjot 5y ago
Surely, it’d be written in a .txt file!
Manuel_D 5y ago
You bury the storage deep underground in an area with no natural resources, and put no sign over it. Security through obscurity: why would some future civilization dig hundreds of meters deep, for no conceivable reason? I'll concede that if there's some sort of civilization collapse and records of waste repositories are lost, and if some future civilization decides to dig in the area of a waste repository, and if said civilization lacks knowledge of radiation poisoning, then unfortunately yes said future civilization will be harmed. But how does the extremely remote possibility of all these hypotheticals occurring stack up against the certain harm caused by fossil fuel pollution and climate change?
- periheli0n 5y ago
  The risk is not through digging, it's through geological processes happening over 100 k years that break up the storage site.
  - Manuel_D 5y ago
    And in the event of a container breach, how does uranium make it through hundreds of meters of rock to get back onto the surface? And if the waste is in a subduction zone, those geological processes are brining the waste deeper into the ground. People seem to be under the impression that even one gram of waste escaping is going to cause irreparable harm. Do people not realize that we've detonated hundreds of nuclear warheads in the atmosphere (and many more underground)? Do people not realize that the UK and Soviet Union simply dumped their nuclear waste into the ocean [1]? Yet we're worried about waste buried deep into bedrock? 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_disposal_of_radioactive_waste#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_disposal_of_radioactive_...
T-A 5y ago
There won't be a vault. After about 70 years, when the tunnels are full, they will be packed with bentonite clay to keep out water and the facility sealed up.
bullen 5y ago
Here it is to watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayLxB9fV2y4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayLxB9fV2y4 (from petermcneeley comment below) The most important bit is 200.000 - 300.000 tonnes of spent uranium exists in the world today, that means we have to build between 15 and 25 equivalents of the Swedish storage (that isn't even started yet) or 30 - 50 Onkalo (that actually exists)... You also need to realize the symmetry that Sweden and Finland are building here... we are briding the failing English/American civilization and the now leading (by energy remaining) Russian civilization (Finland has a Russian power plant in Loviisa) by having powerplants AND storage AND a underwater cable between these at each side of the sea. This is THE project of human civilization, WAAAAAY more important than tesla or spacex (both much more likely to fail and meaningless in comparison). I'll repeat that France has abandoned the 4th generation tech after 10 years building (76-86), 10 years running (86-96); over 20 years ago! They ARE leaders in that field: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superph%C3%A9nix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superph%C3%A9nix What I don't understand is their choice to not leave the spent fuel easily recoverable AND why so close to the water when we predict levels will rise way above the entrances to these constructions?!?!

agency 5y ago

I remember reading about this a long time ago at [1]. They had a panel come up with the essential message they want to communicate which I found really interesting and chilling: > This place is a message… and part of a system of messages… pay attention to it! Sending this message was important to us. We considered ourselves to be a powerful culture. > This place is not a place of honor…no highly esteemed deed is commemorated here… nothing valued is here. > What is here is dangerous and repulsive to us. This message is a warning about danger. > The danger is in a particular location… it increases toward a center… the center of danger is here… of a particular size and shape, and below us. > The danger is still present, in your time, as it was in ours. > The danger is to the body, and it can kill. > The form of the danger is an emanation of energy. > The danger is unleashed only if you substantially disturb this place physically. This place is best shunned and left uninhabited. [1]: https://www.damninteresting.com/this-place-is-not-a-place-of-honor/ https://www.damninteresting.com/this-place-is-not-a-place-of...

reedjosh 5y ago
How could I ever sleep again if I was investigating a ruin and read that message. I'd have to dig into it. It'd be like `Well, we warned you...` but that message is too intriguing.
periheli0n 5y ago
This sounds like the beginning of an Indiana Jones knockoff! He will dig after reading this, for sure!

pjot 5y ago

Surely, it’d be written in a .txt file!

Manuel_D 5y ago

You bury the storage deep underground in an area with no natural resources, and put no sign over it. Security through obscurity: why would some future civilization dig hundreds of meters deep, for no conceivable reason? I'll concede that if there's some sort of civilization collapse and records of waste repositories are lost, and if some future civilization decides to dig in the area of a waste repository, and if said civilization lacks knowledge of radiation poisoning, then unfortunately yes said future civilization will be harmed. But how does the extremely remote possibility of all these hypotheticals occurring stack up against the certain harm caused by fossil fuel pollution and climate change?

periheli0n 5y ago
The risk is not through digging, it's through geological processes happening over 100 k years that break up the storage site.
- Manuel_D 5y ago
  And in the event of a container breach, how does uranium make it through hundreds of meters of rock to get back onto the surface? And if the waste is in a subduction zone, those geological processes are brining the waste deeper into the ground. People seem to be under the impression that even one gram of waste escaping is going to cause irreparable harm. Do people not realize that we've detonated hundreds of nuclear warheads in the atmosphere (and many more underground)? Do people not realize that the UK and Soviet Union simply dumped their nuclear waste into the ocean [1]? Yet we're worried about waste buried deep into bedrock? 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_disposal_of_radioactive_waste#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_disposal_of_radioactive_...

T-A 5y ago

There won't be a vault. After about 70 years, when the tunnels are full, they will be packed with bentonite clay to keep out water and the facility sealed up.

bullen 5y ago

Here it is to watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayLxB9fV2y4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayLxB9fV2y4 (from petermcneeley comment below) The most important bit is 200.000 - 300.000 tonnes of spent uranium exists in the world today, that means we have to build between 15 and 25 equivalents of the Swedish storage (that isn't even started yet) or 30 - 50 Onkalo (that actually exists)... You also need to realize the symmetry that Sweden and Finland are building here... we are briding the failing English/American civilization and the now leading (by energy remaining) Russian civilization (Finland has a Russian power plant in Loviisa) by having powerplants AND storage AND a underwater cable between these at each side of the sea. This is THE project of human civilization, WAAAAAY more important than tesla or spacex (both much more likely to fail and meaningless in comparison). I'll repeat that France has abandoned the 4th generation tech after 10 years building (76-86), 10 years running (86-96); over 20 years ago! They ARE leaders in that field: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superph%C3%A9nix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superph%C3%A9nix What I don't understand is their choice to not leave the spent fuel easily recoverable AND why so close to the water when we predict levels will rise way above the entrances to these constructions?!?!