7 ms·

Here in Norway we have BankID which uses MFA. To access any government, banking, or official system you have to authenticate with your BankID. Its simple amazi

Here in Norway we have BankID which uses MFA. To access any government, banking, or official system you have to authenticate with your BankID. Its simple amazing.

brimble 5y ago
There's significant bi-partisan resistance, in the US, to anything like a national ID, unfortunately, with the result that we have one anyway (because of course we do, the modern world doesn't work without it) it's just an ad-hoc combination of other forms of ID, terrible to work with, heavily reliant on commercial 3rd parties, unreliable, and laughably insecure. But the end result is still a whole bunch of public and private databases that personally identify us and contain tons of information—kind of by necessity, actually, since our ID is a combination of tons of things. It's a very frustrating situation. Worst of both worlds.
- seniorThrowaway 5y ago
  I've done some thinking about this, and a possible solution is a bunch of cross signed CA's like the Federal common policy / FPKI for cross trust amongst federal agencies, but done at a state DMV / DPS level. Driver's licenses / state IDs could have certs embedded into the cards and then be used for things like accessing government websites, banks, etc. Yes there are some access concerns, and some privacy concerns that this is in essence a national ID, but what we have now is horribly broken, and we're already being tracked. We get all the downside of pervasive tracking, but none of the upside.
  - currency 5y ago
    Would that look anything like the REAL ID system?[0] [0]https://www.tsa.gov/real-id https://www.tsa.gov/real-id
thomascgalvin 5y ago
I'm America, about 30% of the population would start screaming about the Mark of the Beast if we tried to roll out something like this.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Which is why you ignore them. No reason for a nation to be held back by this type of person. Same reason you don’t take cancer treatment advice from someone who suggests juicing.
  - ketzo 5y ago
    That 30% of the population translates to about 45% of federal elected representatives. Not quite as easy as "ignoring them," sadly.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- jandrewrogers 5y ago
  There is a large contingent of non-religious people who are against it on civil liberties grounds. The resistance to it truly crosses both parties, and it requires the cooperation of the States, which makes it politically non-viable as a practical matter.
  - kelnos 5y ago
    The thing I don't get about the non-religious arguments is that we already have a national ID, it's just a patchwork system of unreliable, not-particularly-secure forms of identification that are a pain in the ass for a regular citizen to have to deal with. And the REAL ID stuff essentially makes state IDs conform to a national ID specification anyway. And regardless, if you do want a national US ID, you just get a passport, and it'll be accepted as a form of ID everywhere a state-issued driver's license or state ID is accepted. Of course, in this case it's technically voluntary, and many Americans don't travel internationally and don't bother to get a passport.
    - jandrewrogers 5y ago
      Many State governments do not recognize a US passport as valid ID. This was unexpected when I first encountered an example of it, but apparently that is normal and I was just the last person to find out. The REAL ID legislation only regulates processing and format, there is no enforceable requirement to share that with the Federal government and many States (both red and blue) do not in practice. States recognize the ID of other States, as is required by the Constitution. Because there is no official national ID system, you can do virtually everything Federally with a stack of affidavits and pretty thin "evidence" that you are who you claim to be. They strongly prefer that you have something resembling ID but it isn't strictly required. This also creates a national ID bootstrapping problem insofar as millions of Americans don't have proof that they are Americans because there was never a requirement of having documentary evidence. As a consequence, government processes are forgiving of people that have no "real" identification documents because so many people have fallen through the cracks historically. Of course, this has been widely abused historically, so the US government has relatively sophisticated methods for "duck typing" identities by inference these days.
paganel 5y ago
What happens to the people who are not banked?
- adreamingsoul 5y ago
  There are alternatives. For example, MiniID and BuypassID.
  - teddyh 5y ago
    From what I can tell, both of those are only for Norway?
mkohlmyr 5y ago
We have that in Sweden too. As an expat it's a complete nightmare for me from day one. Getting my bank to successfully issue it was impossible. First, in the days before mobile bank-id, they sent windows-only hardware as I recall. Then came the days of letters/cards/hardware getting lost in the mail. I gave up on it in the end. I have multiple things (banking-wise) I no longer have online access to because of it. If you're going to make one system to rule them all you need to make sure the logistics actually work.
- adreamingsoul 5y ago
  (3 years ago I moved to Norway) It took me about a month to get into the system, but once I had my national ID it took about a week for my MFA dongle to arrive. After that It has been a great experience.
Sesse__ 5y ago
BankID: A system with a secret spec, where the bank holds your secret key, there is no transparency log whatsoever (so you have no idea what your bank used that secret key for), can be used to authenticate as yourself almost everywhere, and where you can get huge, legally binding bank loans in minutes (and transfer the money away) with no further authentication. Oh, and if you choose to not participate in this system, enjoy trying to find out the results of your covid test :-) (I ended up getting a Buypass card, but they officially support only Windows and macOS.)
jollybean 5y ago
That's all good except for the 'bank' part. It was expedient but banks are not the orgs. that should be running that. Every nation needs to turn their Drivers ID and Passport authorities into 'Ministry of Identity' and issue fobs, passwords that can be used on the basis of some standard. Or something like that, maybe quasi distributed.
- kelnos 5y ago
  I hear people say all the time that, in the US, the Postal Service would be great for this, and I can't help but agree. Sure, they'd have to develop in-house expertise around these sorts of security systems (just as any new federal government agency put in charge of this would have to do), which could be difficult. But they have the ability to distribute forms, documentation, and tokens to pretty much everyone in the US, with physical locations nearly everywhere that can be used to reach those who don't have physical addresses.
  - thaeli 5y ago
    So does the Social Security Administration, and they already administer the closest thing to a national ID number we have..
- withinboredom 5y ago
  Here in the Netherlands we have DigID. It’s actually pretty awesome.
zajio1am 5y ago
Here in Czechia we have BankID and it is problematic: 1) No verification that the user trusts that particular bank to perform this service. Most banks just deployed BankID for all their customers. 2) No verification between bank and government ensuring that particular person can be represented by particular bank. In principle a bank could inpersonate a person even if that person have no legal relation with that bank. 3) Bank authentication is generally bad. Either login+SMS, or proprietary smartphone applications. No FIDO U2F or any token based systems. Fortunately, there are also alternatives for identification to government services: 1) Government ID card with smartcard chip. But not everyone has a new version of ID card (old version does not have chip). It also requires separate hardware (smartcard reader) and some software middleware. 2) MojeID service (mojeid.cz) that uses FIDO U2F token. Disclaimer: working for CZ.NIC org that also offers MojeID service.
- mormegil 5y ago
  #2 and partially #1 are solved by regulation and reputation: banks are highly regulated business, and BankID support requires specific security audit. Ad #3: FIDO is basically unusable for banking. It's designed for user authentication, not transaction signatures which banks need (and must do because of the PSD2 regulation).
  - tialaramex 5y ago
    If banks were actually onboard with this stuff, I'm pretty sure you can either make this happen in FIDO2 anyway, or you could add a FIDO extension that does it and get big vendors like Yubico to support that extension. Notice that off-line authenticating a Windows 10 PC relies on hmac-secret in FIDO, which is not a core FIDO feature, but it got ratified because there's a use for it, and a Yubikey can do hmac-secret. But I do not see any such engagement from banks. Transaction signatures are good if well implemented, but I'm not seeing a lot of good implementations. To be effective the user needs to understand what's going on so that they're appropriately suspicious when approached by crooks. e.g. if I just know I had to enter 58430012 to send my niece $12, I don't end up learning why and when crooks persuade me to enter 58436500 I won't spot that this is actually authorising a $6500 transfer and I should be alarmed.
tallanvor 5y ago
The problem with BankID is that for older accounts, there's no real guarantee you are who you claim to be. I mean, sure, my bank in Norway has my account tied to a person number, but they don't actually know that when I log in with bankid that I really am the person associated with that person number. --Theoretically the post office was supposed to verify my identity before they gave me the packet containing the code brick, but they forgot to do so - this was over 10 years ago before they had to register the ID details. So basically I have a highly trusted way of authenticating to financial and government services in Norway even though nobody actually knows that I am who I claimed to be when I opened the bank account, setup bankid, etc.

Here in Norway we have BankID which uses MFA. To access any government, banking, or official system you have to authenticate with your BankID. Its simple amazing.

brimble 5y ago

There's significant bi-partisan resistance, in the US, to anything like a national ID, unfortunately, with the result that we have one anyway (because of course we do, the modern world doesn't work without it) it's just an ad-hoc combination of other forms of ID, terrible to work with, heavily reliant on commercial 3rd parties, unreliable, and laughably insecure. But the end result is still a whole bunch of public and private databases that personally identify us and contain tons of information—kind of by necessity, actually, since our ID is a combination of tons of things. It's a very frustrating situation. Worst of both worlds.

seniorThrowaway 5y ago
I've done some thinking about this, and a possible solution is a bunch of cross signed CA's like the Federal common policy / FPKI for cross trust amongst federal agencies, but done at a state DMV / DPS level. Driver's licenses / state IDs could have certs embedded into the cards and then be used for things like accessing government websites, banks, etc. Yes there are some access concerns, and some privacy concerns that this is in essence a national ID, but what we have now is horribly broken, and we're already being tracked. We get all the downside of pervasive tracking, but none of the upside.
- currency 5y ago
  Would that look anything like the REAL ID system?[0] [0]https://www.tsa.gov/real-id https://www.tsa.gov/real-id

thomascgalvin 5y ago

I'm America, about 30% of the population would start screaming about the Mark of the Beast if we tried to roll out something like this.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
Which is why you ignore them. No reason for a nation to be held back by this type of person. Same reason you don’t take cancer treatment advice from someone who suggests juicing.
- ketzo 5y ago
  That 30% of the population translates to about 45% of federal elected representatives. Not quite as easy as "ignoring them," sadly.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
jandrewrogers 5y ago
There is a large contingent of non-religious people who are against it on civil liberties grounds. The resistance to it truly crosses both parties, and it requires the cooperation of the States, which makes it politically non-viable as a practical matter.
- kelnos 5y ago
  The thing I don't get about the non-religious arguments is that we already have a national ID, it's just a patchwork system of unreliable, not-particularly-secure forms of identification that are a pain in the ass for a regular citizen to have to deal with. And the REAL ID stuff essentially makes state IDs conform to a national ID specification anyway. And regardless, if you do want a national US ID, you just get a passport, and it'll be accepted as a form of ID everywhere a state-issued driver's license or state ID is accepted. Of course, in this case it's technically voluntary, and many Americans don't travel internationally and don't bother to get a passport.
  - jandrewrogers 5y ago
    Many State governments do not recognize a US passport as valid ID. This was unexpected when I first encountered an example of it, but apparently that is normal and I was just the last person to find out. The REAL ID legislation only regulates processing and format, there is no enforceable requirement to share that with the Federal government and many States (both red and blue) do not in practice. States recognize the ID of other States, as is required by the Constitution. Because there is no official national ID system, you can do virtually everything Federally with a stack of affidavits and pretty thin "evidence" that you are who you claim to be. They strongly prefer that you have something resembling ID but it isn't strictly required. This also creates a national ID bootstrapping problem insofar as millions of Americans don't have proof that they are Americans because there was never a requirement of having documentary evidence. As a consequence, government processes are forgiving of people that have no "real" identification documents because so many people have fallen through the cracks historically. Of course, this has been widely abused historically, so the US government has relatively sophisticated methods for "duck typing" identities by inference these days.

paganel 5y ago

What happens to the people who are not banked?

adreamingsoul 5y ago
There are alternatives. For example, MiniID and BuypassID.
- teddyh 5y ago
  From what I can tell, both of those are only for Norway?

mkohlmyr 5y ago

We have that in Sweden too. As an expat it's a complete nightmare for me from day one. Getting my bank to successfully issue it was impossible. First, in the days before mobile bank-id, they sent windows-only hardware as I recall. Then came the days of letters/cards/hardware getting lost in the mail. I gave up on it in the end. I have multiple things (banking-wise) I no longer have online access to because of it. If you're going to make one system to rule them all you need to make sure the logistics actually work.

adreamingsoul 5y ago
(3 years ago I moved to Norway) It took me about a month to get into the system, but once I had my national ID it took about a week for my MFA dongle to arrive. After that It has been a great experience.

Sesse__ 5y ago

BankID: A system with a secret spec, where the bank holds your secret key, there is no transparency log whatsoever (so you have no idea what your bank used that secret key for), can be used to authenticate as yourself almost everywhere, and where you can get huge, legally binding bank loans in minutes (and transfer the money away) with no further authentication. Oh, and if you choose to not participate in this system, enjoy trying to find out the results of your covid test :-) (I ended up getting a Buypass card, but they officially support only Windows and macOS.)

jollybean 5y ago

That's all good except for the 'bank' part. It was expedient but banks are not the orgs. that should be running that. Every nation needs to turn their Drivers ID and Passport authorities into 'Ministry of Identity' and issue fobs, passwords that can be used on the basis of some standard. Or something like that, maybe quasi distributed.

kelnos 5y ago
I hear people say all the time that, in the US, the Postal Service would be great for this, and I can't help but agree. Sure, they'd have to develop in-house expertise around these sorts of security systems (just as any new federal government agency put in charge of this would have to do), which could be difficult. But they have the ability to distribute forms, documentation, and tokens to pretty much everyone in the US, with physical locations nearly everywhere that can be used to reach those who don't have physical addresses.
- thaeli 5y ago
  So does the Social Security Administration, and they already administer the closest thing to a national ID number we have..
withinboredom 5y ago
Here in the Netherlands we have DigID. It’s actually pretty awesome.

zajio1am 5y ago

Here in Czechia we have BankID and it is problematic: 1) No verification that the user trusts that particular bank to perform this service. Most banks just deployed BankID for all their customers. 2) No verification between bank and government ensuring that particular person can be represented by particular bank. In principle a bank could inpersonate a person even if that person have no legal relation with that bank. 3) Bank authentication is generally bad. Either login+SMS, or proprietary smartphone applications. No FIDO U2F or any token based systems. Fortunately, there are also alternatives for identification to government services: 1) Government ID card with smartcard chip. But not everyone has a new version of ID card (old version does not have chip). It also requires separate hardware (smartcard reader) and some software middleware. 2) MojeID service (mojeid.cz) that uses FIDO U2F token. Disclaimer: working for CZ.NIC org that also offers MojeID service.

mormegil 5y ago
#2 and partially #1 are solved by regulation and reputation: banks are highly regulated business, and BankID support requires specific security audit. Ad #3: FIDO is basically unusable for banking. It's designed for user authentication, not transaction signatures which banks need (and must do because of the PSD2 regulation).
- tialaramex 5y ago
  If banks were actually onboard with this stuff, I'm pretty sure you can either make this happen in FIDO2 anyway, or you could add a FIDO extension that does it and get big vendors like Yubico to support that extension. Notice that off-line authenticating a Windows 10 PC relies on hmac-secret in FIDO, which is not a core FIDO feature, but it got ratified because there's a use for it, and a Yubikey can do hmac-secret. But I do not see any such engagement from banks. Transaction signatures are good if well implemented, but I'm not seeing a lot of good implementations. To be effective the user needs to understand what's going on so that they're appropriately suspicious when approached by crooks. e.g. if I just know I had to enter 58430012 to send my niece $12, I don't end up learning why and when crooks persuade me to enter 58436500 I won't spot that this is actually authorising a $6500 transfer and I should be alarmed.

tallanvor 5y ago

The problem with BankID is that for older accounts, there's no real guarantee you are who you claim to be. I mean, sure, my bank in Norway has my account tied to a person number, but they don't actually know that when I log in with bankid that I really am the person associated with that person number. --Theoretically the post office was supposed to verify my identity before they gave me the packet containing the code brick, but they forgot to do so - this was over 10 years ago before they had to register the ID details. So basically I have a highly trusted way of authenticating to financial and government services in Norway even though nobody actually knows that I am who I claimed to be when I opened the bank account, setup bankid, etc.