4 ms·

Milling grain, hammering wrought iron, crushing ore etc. There were plenty of uses of mechanized power even in antiquity, and the ancients realized that through

by xyzzyz 5y ago

Milling grain, hammering wrought iron, crushing ore etc. There were plenty of uses of mechanized power even in antiquity, and the ancients realized that through use of water wheels.

mywittyname 5y ago
I don't think the OP is saying that there wasn't a need for mechanized power, just that it wasn't profitable to get that power from steam. Water wheels have no fuel costs, and very little ongoing maintenance costs. A steam engine that could be built in antiquity would be incredibly expensive in both respects. So even if the technology existed, there would be little economic incentive to use it over a water wheels, since transportation is cheaper than fuel and maintenance. As recently as 1900, steam engines were so expensive that most farmers rented equipment by the day.
- shuntress 5y ago
  Simple solution: Military industry. Some generals would likely find a mobile mill stone quite useful. When your centuria loot a conquered land they can now take raw grains in addition to processed flour without being tied down to the local stationary mills.
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    > Some generals would likely find a mobile mill stone quite useful. When your centuria loot a conquered land they can now take raw grains in addition to processed flour without being tied down to the local stationary mills. Not in the slightest. The legion on the march has no use for a millstone because nobody's eating bread. They would never carry processed flour, because it spoils quickly. They carried raw grain and made porridge from it.
    - shuntress 5y ago
      That sounds wrong but I don't know enough about ancient roman military rations to dispute it. Do you have any sources? I thought they primarily consumed bread (both hardtack and leavened), watered down wine/vinegar, and meat (when available.)
      - thaumasiotes 5y ago
        It was wrong. Turning up quick information makes it clear that hardtack was a core part of the military marching diet, and the soldiers could prepare their own bread, though they didn't carry flour. https://imperiumromanum.pl/en/roman-army/food-in-roman-army/ https://imperiumromanum.pl/en/roman-army/food-in-roman-army/ https://www.comitatus.net/research_files/rations.pdf https://www.comitatus.net/research_files/rations.pdf Those both seem like decent writeups which cite to several classical sources. The first one mentions porridge (stating that bread was preferred); the second explicitly makes the assumption that all grain becomes bread. We can safely ignore that assumption. More from that first writeup: > The daily grain ration (wheat or barley)for one legionary was on average 830 grams and was in the form of unground grain; This was mainly due to the fact that grain spoiled slower than flour. > The meals of the Roman legionaries were mainly based on wheat, from which two types of food were made: > mash, called pulse. It was an easier-to-make food that required a mixture of cooked wheat grains, water, salt, fat, and olive oil or milk. Sometimes vegetables or spices were added. > flatbread (pane). It was the more popular use of grain. The soldiers threshed out the grain, ground it with a device or stone, mixed it with water, salt and spices, and then roasted it over the fire. So, what's true: - The legion isn't going to carry a millstone. They're huge and there's no way to justify it. - The legion isn't going to make itself dependent on the location of local mills. That would defeat the purpose of being a military force. - The legion isn't going to carry flour, because it spoils. They carry raw grain. - But they also carry hardtack, which is prepared so as not to spoil quickly. - A foraging legion already takes raw grain. That's their primary foraging objective. They are not limited to robbing granaries; they're happy to harvest it directly from the field. - Food preparation is done at a very low level - if the grain is going to be ground, it will be done in parallel by a large number of soldiers personally grinding small amounts of grain each, not by a mill. - The soldiers often do eat bread. But if you're going to eat bread, you make it from raw grain the same day. This has to occur wherever you happen to be, so you'll be using something like a mortar and pestle. - Despite the fact that bread is preferred to porridge, sometimes you make porridge anyway. It's much easier to make.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
    > mobile mill stone ... makes the brigade/regiment/whatever far less mobile for no real benefit.
    - dredmorbius 5y ago
      I'm now intensely curious about the concept of pre-industrial tactical millstones...
  - bluGill 5y ago
    Depends on if it is a practical self propelled engine or not. Our modern military (for any country with a modern military) is 90% about logistics, and all of that is possible because trucks and trains can carry so much food and other equipment overland (they had good enough ships for over water) that a military can supply itself from back home. This is a massive change to how a military operates and their generals would not be blind to that advantage. Siege defense worked in large part because the enemy ran out of food and had to leave (the food from harvest was stored in the city walls so the defenders had the advantage so long as they held the walls) Of course practical over land transportation is a massive change, and a large part of why our civilization can advance so far. (without tractors 90% of us wouldn't be born because our grandparents would have starved, and the rest would be tillers of the ground - as in physically running a shovel)
- ghaff 5y ago
  Even in the late 19th century, areas with fast moving water (like the Northeast US) tended to use water power for mills rather than steam.
KineticLensman 5y ago
> Milling grain, hammering wrought iron, crushing ore etc Are these actually feasible with a large low-pressure steam engine of the sort that the Greeks could have actually constructed? Remember that the early real steam engines were only just powerful enough to slowly lift buckets of water. [Edit] - good answers below - thanks! But I think the question of economic viability still stands. As pointed out elsewhere, a waterwheel is easy to construct and doesn't have ongoing fuel costs. A steam engine requires a reasonably well developed iron/steel working industry (including skilled artisans), which in turn requires a fair amount of iron ore and fuel to support smelting. The finished steam engine would require a lot of wood as fuel, or coal, which wasn't widely available in ancient Greece, or easily transportable without a lot of effort. Ancient Greek metallurgy was definitely not sophisticated enough to build a steam train and as for for building a railway 1) they could barely build graded roads and 2) they would have needed a phenomenal amount of mass-produced steel for the tracks.
- ajuc 5y ago
  Water hammer is a big lever that has a hammer on one side and a big bucket of water on the other side. Bucket gets filed by a water stream, gets heavier than the hammer and lifts it, and then at the lowest point (of the bucket) it is mounted in such way that the water spills and the hammer drops, resetting the machine. No precision technology needed, they could do it in stone age. You can do the same thing with fireplace and water and it's certainly doable with ancient technology, but I'm not sure it's worth it when you have more running water than industry needs anyway. Another thing they could do is Heron's steam turbine geared in such a way that it does useful work. Also not sure if it's worth it. This trick (using low power to lift the hammer slowly and dropping it quickly) can be adapted to use any inefficient power source - hamster powered mills are possible ;)
- xyzzyz 5y ago
  Yes, because that work had been done at the time by even more underpowered devices, that is, by actual humans. You’re lucky if you get half a horsepower from a good human, so replacing them with low HP steam engines might still be worthwhile.

by xyzzyz 5y ago

Milling grain, hammering wrought iron, crushing ore etc. There were plenty of uses of mechanized power even in antiquity, and the ancients realized that through use of water wheels.

mywittyname 5y ago

I don't think the OP is saying that there wasn't a need for mechanized power, just that it wasn't profitable to get that power from steam. Water wheels have no fuel costs, and very little ongoing maintenance costs. A steam engine that could be built in antiquity would be incredibly expensive in both respects. So even if the technology existed, there would be little economic incentive to use it over a water wheels, since transportation is cheaper than fuel and maintenance. As recently as 1900, steam engines were so expensive that most farmers rented equipment by the day.

shuntress 5y ago
Simple solution: Military industry. Some generals would likely find a mobile mill stone quite useful. When your centuria loot a conquered land they can now take raw grains in addition to processed flour without being tied down to the local stationary mills.
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  > Some generals would likely find a mobile mill stone quite useful. When your centuria loot a conquered land they can now take raw grains in addition to processed flour without being tied down to the local stationary mills. Not in the slightest. The legion on the march has no use for a millstone because nobody's eating bread. They would never carry processed flour, because it spoils quickly. They carried raw grain and made porridge from it.
  - shuntress 5y ago
    That sounds wrong but I don't know enough about ancient roman military rations to dispute it. Do you have any sources? I thought they primarily consumed bread (both hardtack and leavened), watered down wine/vinegar, and meat (when available.)
    - thaumasiotes 5y ago
      It was wrong. Turning up quick information makes it clear that hardtack was a core part of the military marching diet, and the soldiers could prepare their own bread, though they didn't carry flour. https://imperiumromanum.pl/en/roman-army/food-in-roman-army/ https://imperiumromanum.pl/en/roman-army/food-in-roman-army/ https://www.comitatus.net/research_files/rations.pdf https://www.comitatus.net/research_files/rations.pdf Those both seem like decent writeups which cite to several classical sources. The first one mentions porridge (stating that bread was preferred); the second explicitly makes the assumption that all grain becomes bread. We can safely ignore that assumption. More from that first writeup: > The daily grain ration (wheat or barley)for one legionary was on average 830 grams and was in the form of unground grain; This was mainly due to the fact that grain spoiled slower than flour. > The meals of the Roman legionaries were mainly based on wheat, from which two types of food were made: > mash, called pulse. It was an easier-to-make food that required a mixture of cooked wheat grains, water, salt, fat, and olive oil or milk. Sometimes vegetables or spices were added. > flatbread (pane). It was the more popular use of grain. The soldiers threshed out the grain, ground it with a device or stone, mixed it with water, salt and spices, and then roasted it over the fire. So, what's true: - The legion isn't going to carry a millstone. They're huge and there's no way to justify it. - The legion isn't going to make itself dependent on the location of local mills. That would defeat the purpose of being a military force. - The legion isn't going to carry flour, because it spoils. They carry raw grain. - But they also carry hardtack, which is prepared so as not to spoil quickly. - A foraging legion already takes raw grain. That's their primary foraging objective. They are not limited to robbing granaries; they're happy to harvest it directly from the field. - Food preparation is done at a very low level - if the grain is going to be ground, it will be done in parallel by a large number of soldiers personally grinding small amounts of grain each, not by a mill. - The soldiers often do eat bread. But if you're going to eat bread, you make it from raw grain the same day. This has to occur wherever you happen to be, so you'll be using something like a mortar and pestle. - Despite the fact that bread is preferred to porridge, sometimes you make porridge anyway. It's much easier to make.
- HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
  > mobile mill stone ... makes the brigade/regiment/whatever far less mobile for no real benefit.
  - dredmorbius 5y ago
    I'm now intensely curious about the concept of pre-industrial tactical millstones...
- bluGill 5y ago
  Depends on if it is a practical self propelled engine or not. Our modern military (for any country with a modern military) is 90% about logistics, and all of that is possible because trucks and trains can carry so much food and other equipment overland (they had good enough ships for over water) that a military can supply itself from back home. This is a massive change to how a military operates and their generals would not be blind to that advantage. Siege defense worked in large part because the enemy ran out of food and had to leave (the food from harvest was stored in the city walls so the defenders had the advantage so long as they held the walls) Of course practical over land transportation is a massive change, and a large part of why our civilization can advance so far. (without tractors 90% of us wouldn't be born because our grandparents would have starved, and the rest would be tillers of the ground - as in physically running a shovel)
ghaff 5y ago
Even in the late 19th century, areas with fast moving water (like the Northeast US) tended to use water power for mills rather than steam.

KineticLensman 5y ago

> Milling grain, hammering wrought iron, crushing ore etc Are these actually feasible with a large low-pressure steam engine of the sort that the Greeks could have actually constructed? Remember that the early real steam engines were only just powerful enough to slowly lift buckets of water. [Edit] - good answers below - thanks! But I think the question of economic viability still stands. As pointed out elsewhere, a waterwheel is easy to construct and doesn't have ongoing fuel costs. A steam engine requires a reasonably well developed iron/steel working industry (including skilled artisans), which in turn requires a fair amount of iron ore and fuel to support smelting. The finished steam engine would require a lot of wood as fuel, or coal, which wasn't widely available in ancient Greece, or easily transportable without a lot of effort. Ancient Greek metallurgy was definitely not sophisticated enough to build a steam train and as for for building a railway 1) they could barely build graded roads and 2) they would have needed a phenomenal amount of mass-produced steel for the tracks.

ajuc 5y ago
Water hammer is a big lever that has a hammer on one side and a big bucket of water on the other side. Bucket gets filed by a water stream, gets heavier than the hammer and lifts it, and then at the lowest point (of the bucket) it is mounted in such way that the water spills and the hammer drops, resetting the machine. No precision technology needed, they could do it in stone age. You can do the same thing with fireplace and water and it's certainly doable with ancient technology, but I'm not sure it's worth it when you have more running water than industry needs anyway. Another thing they could do is Heron's steam turbine geared in such a way that it does useful work. Also not sure if it's worth it. This trick (using low power to lift the hammer slowly and dropping it quickly) can be adapted to use any inefficient power source - hamster powered mills are possible ;)
xyzzyz 5y ago
Yes, because that work had been done at the time by even more underpowered devices, that is, by actual humans. You’re lucky if you get half a horsepower from a good human, so replacing them with low HP steam engines might still be worthwhile.