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>The Muslim rules about women that the Taliban abide by are a lower level of civility. Full stop. And exactly what rules are those? If you're gonna call people

by tsol 5y ago

>The Muslim rules about women that the Taliban abide by are a lower level of civility. Full stop. And exactly what rules are those? If you're gonna call people less civilized at least have the decency to be specific. Muslims make up 25% of the world population and many Muslim women find modesty to be an empowering personal choice. I know many myself. The idea that they're brainwashed or uncivilized just echoes of the colonial mentality of "these brown people are uneducated and they need to learn to be like us". You're toeing the line as close to Islamophobia as possible while simultaneously acting as a women's rights champion. It's so strange that men can disqualify women's voices in the name of feminism, like women with unpopular opinions aren't valid. I don't agree with the Taliban but without clarification it seems as though your just implying that people who believe modesty is a virtue in women are uncivilized. It's amazing that this kind of speech is acceptable, when we can all recognize similar criticisms coming from conservative voices as problematic

kstenerud 5y ago
Those are the rules that emerge as a byproduct of history as it marches onward. When it comes to human rights, one can note that what is considered acceptable behavior towards a human changes in one direction only. We don't go back towards saying that slavery is acceptable. We don't go back towards saying that racism is acceptable. We don't go back towards saying that executions are acceptable. And we're also not going back towards saying that women have less say than men, that women must defer to men, that women should have less opportunity than men, that women should lose autonomy over their bodies, that women who are "immodest" should be punished, etc. These uncivilised things are slowly weeded out while we as societies learn better ways to counter the baser instincts of our reptilian brains and (hopefully) eventually treat each other with the respect and dignity that are now even codified into a declaration of human rights (very civilised!) So yes, anything that goes counter to that is uncivilised. I don't care who you are; these principles apply. And if you happen to be slower on the uptake, you'll be pitied by those who get there earlier.
- tsol 5y ago
  So basically you skipped over everything I said and made a straw man of "modesty is equivocal to policing women and deciding they must have less opportunity to men". Like you literally cannot consider the subtleties of what some non western believe. Forcing women to believe what you do.. "for freedom" isn't feminist. This is just bigoted intolerant nonsense, and your righteous indignation doesn't make it okay. You would get kicked out of most western feminist groups for saying this stuff. Women aren't uncivilized because you think their views aren't worth discussing and because you cannot understand the difference between women valuing modesty and someone else mandating it. It's exactly the same type of paternalistic thinking that religious leaders use to tell women what to think and what they can't think

by tsol 5y ago

kstenerud 5y ago

Those are the rules that emerge as a byproduct of history as it marches onward. When it comes to human rights, one can note that what is considered acceptable behavior towards a human changes in one direction only. We don't go back towards saying that slavery is acceptable. We don't go back towards saying that racism is acceptable. We don't go back towards saying that executions are acceptable. And we're also not going back towards saying that women have less say than men, that women must defer to men, that women should have less opportunity than men, that women should lose autonomy over their bodies, that women who are "immodest" should be punished, etc. These uncivilised things are slowly weeded out while we as societies learn better ways to counter the baser instincts of our reptilian brains and (hopefully) eventually treat each other with the respect and dignity that are now even codified into a declaration of human rights (very civilised!) So yes, anything that goes counter to that is uncivilised. I don't care who you are; these principles apply. And if you happen to be slower on the uptake, you'll be pitied by those who get there earlier.

tsol 5y ago
So basically you skipped over everything I said and made a straw man of "modesty is equivocal to policing women and deciding they must have less opportunity to men". Like you literally cannot consider the subtleties of what some non western believe. Forcing women to believe what you do.. "for freedom" isn't feminist. This is just bigoted intolerant nonsense, and your righteous indignation doesn't make it okay. You would get kicked out of most western feminist groups for saying this stuff. Women aren't uncivilized because you think their views aren't worth discussing and because you cannot understand the difference between women valuing modesty and someone else mandating it. It's exactly the same type of paternalistic thinking that religious leaders use to tell women what to think and what they can't think