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Because there are very few regulations that can effectively capture the intent of the rules instead of "tick boxes" that might or might not mean very much. Sur

Because there are very few regulations that can effectively capture the intent of the rules instead of "tick boxes" that might or might not mean very much. Sure, "has firewall" is pretty effective but how do you encapsulate how it should be managed effectively? What happens when a system that was supposedly secure installed by a previous employee fails? The company's fault? How would they know? The employee's fault? Maybe they thought it was good but were simply wrong? I think a more fundamental approach would be to set mandatory qualifications for IT workers/devs to ensure a base-level of security/understanding. I know great web devs who don't know about web app security - that shouldn't be possible. It wouldn't be perfect but it would be easier to do refreshers/regular testing for things that people should already have learned, just like train drivers do.

pevey 5y ago
The same is true of legislation like SOX, which is very much a checkbox approach and has not solved everything related to financial reporting, by a longshot. But that doesn't mean regulation would be totally useless. From the article: >The European Union has been operating under such a standard since May 2018. Known as the General Data Protection Regulation, the law requires companies to implement security measures to protect sensitive personal data and to promptly notify regulators and affected consumers when it gets compromised. Violations of the data protection rules can result in fines as high as 4% of a business’s annual worldwide sales. “You have to implement cybersecurity measures if you process personal data, and if you do not, you will have a legal problem,” said Stefan Hessel, a cybersecurity specialist in Germany at the Reuschlaw law firm. >Such measures may in fact make it harder for hackers to ply their trade, if Pompompurin’s postings are any indication. In August he was asked on RaidForums why large collections of personal data always seem to come from the U.S. He responded: “Because its the easiest to get, other countries have load of protection laws & shit, in the US your address is basically public information no matter how hard you try not to be put on lists like this.”
shuntress 5y ago
>there are very few regulations that can effectively capture the intent of the rules instead of "tick boxes" that might or might not mean very much. >set mandatory qualifications for IT workers/devs to ensure a base-level of security/understanding What is it about this regulation that prevents it becoming a useless box for IT pros to check?
Clubber 5y ago
>Because there are very few regulations that can effectively capture the intent of the rules instead of "tick boxes" that might or might not mean very much. So HIPAA fines a company up to $50,000 per patient when a data leak occurs. They don't have to regulate how to secure the data, they just have to establish a fine with teeth requiring that companies secure their data with punishment when they don't. Of course if congress would apply HIPAA rules to everyone's data and actually enforce it, data leaks for the most part will stop. https://www.hipaajournal.com/what-are-the-penalties-for-hipaa-violations-7096/ https://www.hipaajournal.com/what-are-the-penalties-for-hipa...
- fishpen0 5y ago
  Fines don't happen until they get caught. How long can a company go and how much can they make before they get caught? What happens to the executives? They just move on pointing to their old success numbers. I run internal audits for a large org as part of a strike team when my company is acquiring smaller orgs. External auditors are a joke and it's incredibly easy to slip things by them. The only reason we catch stuff is because we assume full ownership as part of our takeover process and actually build and deploy product to find issues.
  - throwaway984393 5y ago
    But your company wouldn't even have a line item to look for those problems if regulations didn't require it. It's not a fool-proof solution but it's at least a foot in the door for improvement
- log4shelled 5y ago
  Look up the cap on fines per year. It's less than $2m. I've consulted for healthcare companies where that is a literal rounding error on their bottom line. They. Do. Not. Care.
  - Clubber 5y ago
    There's also a criminal liability aspect to it. I've worked for healthcare companies too and they do care, at least enough to have it in the conversation and to include the HIPAA officer in those conversations. Nowhere I have worked have they been flippant about it. I agree with you that the cap is too low. It should cap based on gross or revenue. I suspect it's so that the smaller companies won't get destroyed by fines leaving the larger ones largely unaffected, but I'm speculating.
fishpen0 5y ago
It also doesn't help that these frameworks are often dated and don't align with modern best practices. Shops have the choice to check the boxes and do things the dumb way or to fill out page after page after page of special exception documentation for their auditors. Most take the easy way. And that doesn't even cover the part where PCI, SOCII, and SOX all have various bits that contradict or are not compatible with each other. I've seen too many times where the head of security or IT or whatever picks a pre-made package off a shelf from one of the audit providers where they guarantee you will pass all of them. Then they follow it like it's law ultimately leading the swe/devop/sre groups to build out layers of shadow it/ops to actually get productive work done. My work primarily is to jump into startups after they are acquired to make them "enterprise ready" for a bigger org and its always a unique shit show dealing with the preexisting war between their security/it orgs and their actual product development orgs.

pevey 5y ago

The same is true of legislation like SOX, which is very much a checkbox approach and has not solved everything related to financial reporting, by a longshot. But that doesn't mean regulation would be totally useless. From the article: >The European Union has been operating under such a standard since May 2018. Known as the General Data Protection Regulation, the law requires companies to implement security measures to protect sensitive personal data and to promptly notify regulators and affected consumers when it gets compromised. Violations of the data protection rules can result in fines as high as 4% of a business’s annual worldwide sales. “You have to implement cybersecurity measures if you process personal data, and if you do not, you will have a legal problem,” said Stefan Hessel, a cybersecurity specialist in Germany at the Reuschlaw law firm. >Such measures may in fact make it harder for hackers to ply their trade, if Pompompurin’s postings are any indication. In August he was asked on RaidForums why large collections of personal data always seem to come from the U.S. He responded: “Because its the easiest to get, other countries have load of protection laws & shit, in the US your address is basically public information no matter how hard you try not to be put on lists like this.”

shuntress 5y ago

>there are very few regulations that can effectively capture the intent of the rules instead of "tick boxes" that might or might not mean very much. >set mandatory qualifications for IT workers/devs to ensure a base-level of security/understanding What is it about this regulation that prevents it becoming a useless box for IT pros to check?

Clubber 5y ago

>Because there are very few regulations that can effectively capture the intent of the rules instead of "tick boxes" that might or might not mean very much. So HIPAA fines a company up to $50,000 per patient when a data leak occurs. They don't have to regulate how to secure the data, they just have to establish a fine with teeth requiring that companies secure their data with punishment when they don't. Of course if congress would apply HIPAA rules to everyone's data and actually enforce it, data leaks for the most part will stop. https://www.hipaajournal.com/what-are-the-penalties-for-hipaa-violations-7096/ https://www.hipaajournal.com/what-are-the-penalties-for-hipa...

fishpen0 5y ago
Fines don't happen until they get caught. How long can a company go and how much can they make before they get caught? What happens to the executives? They just move on pointing to their old success numbers. I run internal audits for a large org as part of a strike team when my company is acquiring smaller orgs. External auditors are a joke and it's incredibly easy to slip things by them. The only reason we catch stuff is because we assume full ownership as part of our takeover process and actually build and deploy product to find issues.
- throwaway984393 5y ago
  But your company wouldn't even have a line item to look for those problems if regulations didn't require it. It's not a fool-proof solution but it's at least a foot in the door for improvement
log4shelled 5y ago
Look up the cap on fines per year. It's less than $2m. I've consulted for healthcare companies where that is a literal rounding error on their bottom line. They. Do. Not. Care.
- Clubber 5y ago
  There's also a criminal liability aspect to it. I've worked for healthcare companies too and they do care, at least enough to have it in the conversation and to include the HIPAA officer in those conversations. Nowhere I have worked have they been flippant about it. I agree with you that the cap is too low. It should cap based on gross or revenue. I suspect it's so that the smaller companies won't get destroyed by fines leaving the larger ones largely unaffected, but I'm speculating.

fishpen0 5y ago

It also doesn't help that these frameworks are often dated and don't align with modern best practices. Shops have the choice to check the boxes and do things the dumb way or to fill out page after page after page of special exception documentation for their auditors. Most take the easy way. And that doesn't even cover the part where PCI, SOCII, and SOX all have various bits that contradict or are not compatible with each other. I've seen too many times where the head of security or IT or whatever picks a pre-made package off a shelf from one of the audit providers where they guarantee you will pass all of them. Then they follow it like it's law ultimately leading the swe/devop/sre groups to build out layers of shadow it/ops to actually get productive work done. My work primarily is to jump into startups after they are acquired to make them "enterprise ready" for a bigger org and its always a unique shit show dealing with the preexisting war between their security/it orgs and their actual product development orgs.