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It wasn't anything like the distinct European institution in these places, which was hell anyways - there was a good reason why these people risked death and we

It wasn't anything like the distinct European institution in these places, which was hell anyways - there was a good reason why these people risked death and went to America.

Retric 5y ago
While the most extreme abuses happen in basically every society at some level, widespread institutions run into real limits. Extremely brutal forms of widespread oppression take strong institutes to maintain stability. Haiti for example had truly horrific conditions, but it couldn’t maintain control first seeing significant numbers of escaped slaves living off the land then a successful uprising. Natzi’s where brutally efficient at working their slaves to death. At the other end, Native American tribes for example would capture people effectively taking slaves but they integrated them into their tribes. Similar practices where fairly widespread in many cultures without firm centralized governments. The captured wife/sex slave divide is historically nuanced. Keeping people under lock and key takes effort and limits the forms of manual labor they can do. Mines where often extremely horrific because they where so easily managed. Hunting on the other hand requires significant freedom of movement.
- emteycz 5y ago
  I don't know what relevance this has to the fact that any brands of anarchism anywhere were as bad or worse than the US ever was, and (unfortunately - I'd really like them to succeed) never better. > widespread institutions run into real limits. The only limit of European feudal lords was how many people they could kill/cause death before there was nobody left to do slave work and fight in wars for them. America was a heaven for the serfs.
  - Retric 5y ago
    There are many historical accounts of freemen in England choosing to become serfs. It wasn’t freedom, but they had real protections. For example they couldn’t be sold individually only the land they where bound to could be sold, which was a major protection keeping families from being broken up. They may have owed their lord specific quantities of uncompensated labor, but conversely that meant they had socially and legally protected free time. Also, Serfdom largely disappeared in Western Europe well before America was a thing. “In England, the end of serfdom began with the Peasants' Revolt in 1381. It had largely died out in England by 1500 as a personal status and was fully ended when Elizabeth I freed the last remaining serfs in 1574” “ Serfdom was de facto ended in France by Philip IV, Louis X (1315), and Philip V (1318).[6][7] With the exception of a few isolated cases, serfdom had ceased to exist in France by the 15th century. In Early Modern France, French nobles nevertheless maintained a great number of seigneurial privileges over the free peasants that worked lands under their control. Serfdom was formally abolished in France in 1789.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_serfdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_serfdom. Various exceptions did exist but it simply wasn’t that common in Western Europe.

It wasn't anything like the distinct European institution in these places, which was hell anyways - there was a good reason why these people risked death and went to America.

Retric 5y ago

While the most extreme abuses happen in basically every society at some level, widespread institutions run into real limits. Extremely brutal forms of widespread oppression take strong institutes to maintain stability. Haiti for example had truly horrific conditions, but it couldn’t maintain control first seeing significant numbers of escaped slaves living off the land then a successful uprising. Natzi’s where brutally efficient at working their slaves to death. At the other end, Native American tribes for example would capture people effectively taking slaves but they integrated them into their tribes. Similar practices where fairly widespread in many cultures without firm centralized governments. The captured wife/sex slave divide is historically nuanced. Keeping people under lock and key takes effort and limits the forms of manual labor they can do. Mines where often extremely horrific because they where so easily managed. Hunting on the other hand requires significant freedom of movement.

emteycz 5y ago
I don't know what relevance this has to the fact that any brands of anarchism anywhere were as bad or worse than the US ever was, and (unfortunately - I'd really like them to succeed) never better. > widespread institutions run into real limits. The only limit of European feudal lords was how many people they could kill/cause death before there was nobody left to do slave work and fight in wars for them. America was a heaven for the serfs.
- Retric 5y ago
  There are many historical accounts of freemen in England choosing to become serfs. It wasn’t freedom, but they had real protections. For example they couldn’t be sold individually only the land they where bound to could be sold, which was a major protection keeping families from being broken up. They may have owed their lord specific quantities of uncompensated labor, but conversely that meant they had socially and legally protected free time. Also, Serfdom largely disappeared in Western Europe well before America was a thing. “In England, the end of serfdom began with the Peasants' Revolt in 1381. It had largely died out in England by 1500 as a personal status and was fully ended when Elizabeth I freed the last remaining serfs in 1574” “ Serfdom was de facto ended in France by Philip IV, Louis X (1315), and Philip V (1318).[6][7] With the exception of a few isolated cases, serfdom had ceased to exist in France by the 15th century. In Early Modern France, French nobles nevertheless maintained a great number of seigneurial privileges over the free peasants that worked lands under their control. Serfdom was formally abolished in France in 1789.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_serfdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_serfdom. Various exceptions did exist but it simply wasn’t that common in Western Europe.