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>K8s is designed to solve a different problem: scaling up the traditional model of programming. Yep. K8s is a hell spawn of ITIL (a decades old IBM's take on B

by trhway 5y ago

>K8s is designed to solve a different problem: scaling up the traditional model of programming. Yep. K8s is a hell spawn of ITIL (a decades old IBM's take on BigCo/government IT infrastructure management). Google has been practicing ITIL, Borg comes out as a result, which takes K8s shape outside of Google. That is one of the main reasons why management likes K8s - ITIL was created by managers for managers. The approaches like SSI for example shift the balance toward developers/engineering and thus instinctively resisted by managers.

rswail 5y ago
ITIL configuration management has nothing to do with K8S cluster management. ITIL configuration management is process driven, whereas K8S is declarative. It's in the names of the processes, Incident Management, Problem Management, Change Management. K8S has controllers that are given a configuration and work out how to deploy that, taking into account current state. ie, it's functionally taking the state of the system now, S0 and applying functional modifications to return S1. The issue is that the modifications aren't "pure" in a functional sense, because there's a temporal aspect that means there can be difficulties in achieving an equilibrium to get to S1.
menage 5y ago
> Google has been practicing ITIL, Borg comes out as a result, Having been a member of the team that built Borg, I can assure you that those two things were unrelated. I can't say for sure whether the initial idea/impetus for Borg came from the management or the developer side, but once the project was started it was very much engineer-driven, and pretty organically so. The Infrastructure team at Google at the time (of which Borg was a part, along with several other related cloud projects) had a single manager for what grew to eventually 100+ engineers (mostly senior/staff level, and highly independent) before Google started creating/hiring managers more aggressively, so we were pretty much self-managing. The design and implementation of Borg was horizontal, both within the team, and coordinating with engineers (developers and operations teams) that would actually need to use the system. I'd say it was at least three years in before management really got involved in design decisions, by which time Borg was running most of Google's production services It was a bit of a Wild West, but compared to some later major from-scratch design/development projects I've been involved in since, it was a Belle Époque.

by trhway 5y ago

rswail 5y ago

ITIL configuration management has nothing to do with K8S cluster management. ITIL configuration management is process driven, whereas K8S is declarative. It's in the names of the processes, Incident Management, Problem Management, Change Management. K8S has controllers that are given a configuration and work out how to deploy that, taking into account current state. ie, it's functionally taking the state of the system now, S0 and applying functional modifications to return S1. The issue is that the modifications aren't "pure" in a functional sense, because there's a temporal aspect that means there can be difficulties in achieving an equilibrium to get to S1.

menage 5y ago

> Google has been practicing ITIL, Borg comes out as a result, Having been a member of the team that built Borg, I can assure you that those two things were unrelated. I can't say for sure whether the initial idea/impetus for Borg came from the management or the developer side, but once the project was started it was very much engineer-driven, and pretty organically so. The Infrastructure team at Google at the time (of which Borg was a part, along with several other related cloud projects) had a single manager for what grew to eventually 100+ engineers (mostly senior/staff level, and highly independent) before Google started creating/hiring managers more aggressively, so we were pretty much self-managing. The design and implementation of Borg was horizontal, both within the team, and coordinating with engineers (developers and operations teams) that would actually need to use the system. I'd say it was at least three years in before management really got involved in design decisions, by which time Borg was running most of Google's production services It was a bit of a Wild West, but compared to some later major from-scratch design/development projects I've been involved in since, it was a Belle Époque.