6 ms·

If you have the skills, it generally shouldn't matter what clothes you wear. Even if you don't have the skills, it generally shouldn't matter what clothes you

If you have the skills, it generally shouldn't matter what clothes you wear. Even if you don't have the skills, it generally shouldn't matter what clothes you wear. Like don't strap knives to your arms, and do wear a good mask, but generally we spend a lot of time policing other folk's bodies and attire, and for what?

albertzeyer 5y ago
It depends maybe on the circles you interact with, but in some circles, people are not taken seriously which try too much to adhere to the conservative business dress code by wearing a suite with tie. This is actually a common meme: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/fbwnd0/im_in_this_picture_and_i_dont_like_it/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/fbwnd0/im_... https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/ajthjb/this_is_how_programmers_dress/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/ajthjb/thi... https://www.quora.com/What-do-people-think-good-programmers-dress-like https://www.quora.com/What-do-people-think-good-programmers-... How developers dress really depends on the company and the culture there. E.g. in Germany in many of the conservative older companies, wearing a suite is mandatory, and esp also in all those consulting companies. Also in many of the privatized companies like Deutsche Post, Deutsche Bahn, etc. But then, in other more modern software companies, people would make fun of that. The idea that you must adhere to some clothing dress code rules is really against the open-minded principles of software developers.
- WesternWind 5y ago
  I mean if they are trying to make someone else like me wear formal clothes, yeah I wouldn't take them seriously. I wouldn't work for a company which polices what I decide to wear like that. But if an individual just wear one themselves by choice, it's silly to judge them for that choice. Interviewing is hard, maybe they feel more confident in a suit. I feel company culture should be less about someone's personal style/clothing/hobbies than if someone, for example, berates and yells at fellow employees who make a mistake or talks calmly through issues without treating others like they are the problem.
- tekknik 5y ago
  Right leaning software developer here. What are you talking about? Why do you think this has anything to do with political alignment? I find a suit as uncomfortable as anybody else. Dress code is more about public image in my experience than political alignment.
  - jrk 5y ago
    The use of "conservative" here doesn't seem to refer to political alignment. It is common to talk about "conservative business culture" and "conservative dress" to refer to cultural factors — exactly around things like expecting suits and ties. The parent post does not appear to be talking about politics.
    - tekknik 5y ago
      Fair enough. Maybe be more specific next time in this highly politicized world?
      - WesternWind 5y ago
        In a thread on about a chinese vlogger and techie, in a comment about a german company, maybe your perspective could be a bit more cosmopolitan?
        tekknik 5y ago
        Because the general idea of conservatism doesn’t exist in either of these countries? Try again.
        WesternWind 5y ago
        There is no general idea of conservatism though. What's conservative in China, or Germany, or the US, it's radically different. There are only specific cultural understandings, each of which almost always map poorly when applied cross culturally.
nefitty 5y ago
Brains run on heuristics and shortcuts. A group of brains will develop shared signals to aid in that energy-conservation. They will then refine their signalling, ie contextual, implicit, misleading, covert, etc. Some signals are loud and drown out more complex ones. "Sex sells." The more those types of signals are tolerated or incentivized on a platform, the further it will be dominated by noise masking covert signals. I once attended a round table discussion in a previous job. The topic was women and work. I'm male, and was a manager, and figured that if half my directs are women I should do what I can to listen and support them. Anyways, the guest of honor proceeded to advise the 100+ female managers in the room to, among other things, "use their assets" to influence people in the organization. This was met with a stunned but approving clamor. I felt embarrassed, as if I had accidentally crashed a private sleepover. The person sharing the advice had a proven track record. Why hang onto sexuality signals? Because they work.
dogleash 5y ago
I agree with you that attire doesn't matter, but we're currently in a swing of increasing conformity. Including (or maybe especially) in tech. It doesn't look like the stereotype of conformity from our parent's generation, so people don't acknowledge it for what it is. Or think that conflict between subcultures with a handful of mutually exclusive standards for conforming somehow nulls it out.
kragen 5y ago
I do know people who have taken swords to programming conferences, and I've personally been given a knife with a belt sheath for presenting at the same programming conference (possibly a different year). Admittedly neither the swords nor the smaller knives were strapped to our arms, just our waists.
- JimDabell 5y ago
  Not to mention Sikhs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirpan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirpan
dfxm12 5y ago
generally we spend a lot of time policing other folk's bodies and attire, and for what? I'd guess it stems from some feelings of insecurity.
- igetspam 5y ago
  Speak to feminist scholars. It's far more entrenched than that. We have numerous systems deeply entrenched in our model for society that encourage this, specifically against women. We create incentives for insecurity and then prey on it. Keeping women under a microscope, consciously or not, maintains the status quo in business, government, public spaces, etc and as you follow the path back, it almost always has roots I'm religious fundamentalism. So, yes, insecurity but primarily insecurity about losing power and control, by men. That's why we focus so much on what "she" wears but nobody gives two shits if I show up to work in flipflops, board shorts and a tank top. Why would they? I'm a dude.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    Feminist scholars do well at diagnosing the problem. but they're terrible when it comes to arguing for good solutions. They mostly talk about ideology, and let's not kid ourselves: ideology (divisive ideology, at that) is not going to improve women's self esteem or lower their insecurity.
    - spopejoy 5y ago
      I doubt you actually read any feminist scholars. If you did you'd realize that there's no way to characterize them as they are all over the map, especially since they can fall into so many disciplines (philosophy, literature, sociology, political science, history, etc). Feminism has an extremely broad remit and it's all based on the idea that actual ideology routinely boxes in half of the population in some way or another. It's just a fact, and thus there is endless study that can be undertaken.
  - bradlys 5y ago
    Depends on your position as a male. Barack Obama got made fun of for a tan/beige suit he wore once. Men get made fun of for what they wear all the time. So, I don’t get this argument that no one cares what men wear because we all certainly do. See mens wardrobe options vs womens. Compare the two - look at what is normal for one and normal for another. You’ll see one has far more selection than the other.
tsol 5y ago
It shouldn't matter to whom? The key here is advertisers don't want to be associated with that. You cab very well respect and accept her, but if a private corporation funding or hosting her videos has an issue with it we can't force them on moral grounds. That's policing other folks as well
- numpad0 5y ago
  > The key here is advertisers don't want to be associated with that. Has this ever been substantiated or verified publicly? Which industry are those and why?
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    It's by far the most parsimonious explanation when anything halfway popular gets "demonetized". YT is a profit-seeking business, they're always going to work closely with advertisers. Content makers and users are secondary, almost nobody is paying for YouTube Red.
    - guiambros 5y ago
      > ..almost nobody is paying for YouTube Red Well, I'd say it's a bit more than "almost nobody" [1], even if you discount trialers. [1] https://blog.youtube/news-and-events/50-million/ https://blog.youtube/news-and-events/50-million/
  - tsol 5y ago
    Not that I know of, but I doubt any company will ever want to come out and say "hey btw we don't like revealing images of women associated with our product". It'd be something they request of their ad partners, in this case Google, and I'd imagine it'd be something companies would want to keep under wraps. No need to expose themselves to unneeded controversy. But we do know that many companies do feel that way, which is why many companies try to create a "family friendly" image. And as Google has said themselves, why many don't want to be associated with "non family friendly" images
- themaninthedark 5y ago
EarlKing 5y ago
This has never been true and will never be true for one very important reason: limited attention span. No one has an infinite attention span, and there are many stimuli competing for our attention. Thus, when someone shows up looking like a hobo claiming to have discovered the secrets of the universe, or someone decked out like a bimbo wants to talk about their latest art project, people rightly tune out. That doesn't make them bad people, but it does mark the person trying to get their attention as being painfully unaware that having knowledge of rhetoric is not optional if you want to succeed. What you wear when you're not trying to convince anyone of anything is your own business, but when you're actually trying to reach someone, maybe it's not asking too much to demonstrate some basic self awareness? If you're not willing to go that far then why should anyone listen to you?
boznz 5y ago
Agree.. As long as my dick isnt hanging out of my shorts Im generally good to go. (Helps my customers are pretty laid back too)
- jacquesm 5y ago
  I worked for two gay guys that had their office in a flat next to their home. Sometimes they'd forget which side of the partition they were on. In the beginning I was a bit flushed about this, after a while I didn't even notice any more.

albertzeyer 5y ago

It depends maybe on the circles you interact with, but in some circles, people are not taken seriously which try too much to adhere to the conservative business dress code by wearing a suite with tie. This is actually a common meme: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/fbwnd0/im_in_this_picture_and_i_dont_like_it/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/fbwnd0/im_... https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/ajthjb/this_is_how_programmers_dress/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/ajthjb/thi... https://www.quora.com/What-do-people-think-good-programmers-dress-like https://www.quora.com/What-do-people-think-good-programmers-... How developers dress really depends on the company and the culture there. E.g. in Germany in many of the conservative older companies, wearing a suite is mandatory, and esp also in all those consulting companies. Also in many of the privatized companies like Deutsche Post, Deutsche Bahn, etc. But then, in other more modern software companies, people would make fun of that. The idea that you must adhere to some clothing dress code rules is really against the open-minded principles of software developers.

WesternWind 5y ago
I mean if they are trying to make someone else like me wear formal clothes, yeah I wouldn't take them seriously. I wouldn't work for a company which polices what I decide to wear like that. But if an individual just wear one themselves by choice, it's silly to judge them for that choice. Interviewing is hard, maybe they feel more confident in a suit. I feel company culture should be less about someone's personal style/clothing/hobbies than if someone, for example, berates and yells at fellow employees who make a mistake or talks calmly through issues without treating others like they are the problem.
tekknik 5y ago
Right leaning software developer here. What are you talking about? Why do you think this has anything to do with political alignment? I find a suit as uncomfortable as anybody else. Dress code is more about public image in my experience than political alignment.
- jrk 5y ago
  The use of "conservative" here doesn't seem to refer to political alignment. It is common to talk about "conservative business culture" and "conservative dress" to refer to cultural factors — exactly around things like expecting suits and ties. The parent post does not appear to be talking about politics.
  - tekknik 5y ago
    Fair enough. Maybe be more specific next time in this highly politicized world?
    - WesternWind 5y ago
      In a thread on about a chinese vlogger and techie, in a comment about a german company, maybe your perspective could be a bit more cosmopolitan?
      - tekknik 5y ago
        Because the general idea of conservatism doesn’t exist in either of these countries? Try again.
        WesternWind 5y ago
        There is no general idea of conservatism though. What's conservative in China, or Germany, or the US, it's radically different. There are only specific cultural understandings, each of which almost always map poorly when applied cross culturally.

nefitty 5y ago

Brains run on heuristics and shortcuts. A group of brains will develop shared signals to aid in that energy-conservation. They will then refine their signalling, ie contextual, implicit, misleading, covert, etc. Some signals are loud and drown out more complex ones. "Sex sells." The more those types of signals are tolerated or incentivized on a platform, the further it will be dominated by noise masking covert signals. I once attended a round table discussion in a previous job. The topic was women and work. I'm male, and was a manager, and figured that if half my directs are women I should do what I can to listen and support them. Anyways, the guest of honor proceeded to advise the 100+ female managers in the room to, among other things, "use their assets" to influence people in the organization. This was met with a stunned but approving clamor. I felt embarrassed, as if I had accidentally crashed a private sleepover. The person sharing the advice had a proven track record. Why hang onto sexuality signals? Because they work.

dogleash 5y ago

I agree with you that attire doesn't matter, but we're currently in a swing of increasing conformity. Including (or maybe especially) in tech. It doesn't look like the stereotype of conformity from our parent's generation, so people don't acknowledge it for what it is. Or think that conflict between subcultures with a handful of mutually exclusive standards for conforming somehow nulls it out.

kragen 5y ago

I do know people who have taken swords to programming conferences, and I've personally been given a knife with a belt sheath for presenting at the same programming conference (possibly a different year). Admittedly neither the swords nor the smaller knives were strapped to our arms, just our waists.

JimDabell 5y ago
Not to mention Sikhs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirpan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirpan

dfxm12 5y ago

generally we spend a lot of time policing other folk's bodies and attire, and for what? I'd guess it stems from some feelings of insecurity.

igetspam 5y ago
Speak to feminist scholars. It's far more entrenched than that. We have numerous systems deeply entrenched in our model for society that encourage this, specifically against women. We create incentives for insecurity and then prey on it. Keeping women under a microscope, consciously or not, maintains the status quo in business, government, public spaces, etc and as you follow the path back, it almost always has roots I'm religious fundamentalism. So, yes, insecurity but primarily insecurity about losing power and control, by men. That's why we focus so much on what "she" wears but nobody gives two shits if I show up to work in flipflops, board shorts and a tank top. Why would they? I'm a dude.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  Feminist scholars do well at diagnosing the problem. but they're terrible when it comes to arguing for good solutions. They mostly talk about ideology, and let's not kid ourselves: ideology (divisive ideology, at that) is not going to improve women's self esteem or lower their insecurity.
  - spopejoy 5y ago
    I doubt you actually read any feminist scholars. If you did you'd realize that there's no way to characterize them as they are all over the map, especially since they can fall into so many disciplines (philosophy, literature, sociology, political science, history, etc). Feminism has an extremely broad remit and it's all based on the idea that actual ideology routinely boxes in half of the population in some way or another. It's just a fact, and thus there is endless study that can be undertaken.
- bradlys 5y ago
  Depends on your position as a male. Barack Obama got made fun of for a tan/beige suit he wore once. Men get made fun of for what they wear all the time. So, I don’t get this argument that no one cares what men wear because we all certainly do. See mens wardrobe options vs womens. Compare the two - look at what is normal for one and normal for another. You’ll see one has far more selection than the other.

tsol 5y ago

It shouldn't matter to whom? The key here is advertisers don't want to be associated with that. You cab very well respect and accept her, but if a private corporation funding or hosting her videos has an issue with it we can't force them on moral grounds. That's policing other folks as well

numpad0 5y ago
> The key here is advertisers don't want to be associated with that. Has this ever been substantiated or verified publicly? Which industry are those and why?
- zozbot234 5y ago
  It's by far the most parsimonious explanation when anything halfway popular gets "demonetized". YT is a profit-seeking business, they're always going to work closely with advertisers. Content makers and users are secondary, almost nobody is paying for YouTube Red.
  - guiambros 5y ago
    > ..almost nobody is paying for YouTube Red Well, I'd say it's a bit more than "almost nobody" [1], even if you discount trialers. [1] https://blog.youtube/news-and-events/50-million/ https://blog.youtube/news-and-events/50-million/
- tsol 5y ago
  Not that I know of, but I doubt any company will ever want to come out and say "hey btw we don't like revealing images of women associated with our product". It'd be something they request of their ad partners, in this case Google, and I'd imagine it'd be something companies would want to keep under wraps. No need to expose themselves to unneeded controversy. But we do know that many companies do feel that way, which is why many companies try to create a "family friendly" image. And as Google has said themselves, why many don't want to be associated with "non family friendly" images
themaninthedark 5y ago

EarlKing 5y ago

This has never been true and will never be true for one very important reason: limited attention span. No one has an infinite attention span, and there are many stimuli competing for our attention. Thus, when someone shows up looking like a hobo claiming to have discovered the secrets of the universe, or someone decked out like a bimbo wants to talk about their latest art project, people rightly tune out. That doesn't make them bad people, but it does mark the person trying to get their attention as being painfully unaware that having knowledge of rhetoric is not optional if you want to succeed. What you wear when you're not trying to convince anyone of anything is your own business, but when you're actually trying to reach someone, maybe it's not asking too much to demonstrate some basic self awareness? If you're not willing to go that far then why should anyone listen to you?

boznz 5y ago

Agree.. As long as my dick isnt hanging out of my shorts Im generally good to go. (Helps my customers are pretty laid back too)

jacquesm 5y ago
I worked for two gay guys that had their office in a flat next to their home. Sometimes they'd forget which side of the partition they were on. In the beginning I was a bit flushed about this, after a while I didn't even notice any more.