4 ms·

> But, they can dictate how some men want to show their body? shakes head You're making this a gender war thing. It's not about who gets to dictate what to who

> But, they can dictate how some men want to show their body? shakes head You're making this a gender war thing. It's not about who gets to dictate what to whom. It's about why something is dictated and who it's benefitting. For genitalia, both genders are not allowed to show theirs. This is acceptable because it's fair. For breasts, men can show theirs, yet women cannot. For skirts: too short and a woman is labeled slutty. Why? Because people who sexualize them (often men) view them as sexy and wanting sex. And so these people then dictate that they should wear longer skirts so that they don't feel so guilty themselves. This ends up being one party dictating how the other should appear in order to accommodate their own needs. Men can wear short or long. It's ok because generally women do not sexualize men in that way. But the point here is that the viewpoint of immodesty comes from the viewer, and women have no control in how they are viewed by others, therefore they should not have to adjust themselves to accommodate for something they have no control over. > 1. Does a person have a right to show whatever part of their body that they want to? >> Sure. No that is not my argument. I accept the laws that both genders cannot show their genitals or sexual organs. If we enacted a law that said all people have to hide their mouths I'd be in full support. We don't have such a law but we are close to it (face masks for covid). What I am against is unequal laws enacted by one group on another to accommodate the first or other group. > 3. Should the rule be based on whether the viewer/displayer is female or male? >> Most definitely not. This is not about male or female. This is about one group forcing their preference on another group to accommodate their own needs.

tromp 5y ago
- chrischen 5y ago
  > Men can't wear "too short" because men's pants are not made that short. You’re completely missing the point. If men did wear shorts as short as a woman they might be perceived to be weird, but not sexualized in the way a woman would be. Men do have breasts. They are simply not as enlarged. But again you are missing the point because a flat-chested woman would not be allowed to show her breasts either. Maybe men are just better genetically because we are not born so immodest? My argument summed up is that woman have certain non-sex related body parts (could be hips, could be breasts) that have certain display requirements thrust upon them because they cause sexualized ideas in another group of people (mostly men). As a society we decided that these sexualized thoughts are bad and should be stopped. OK, that’s acceptable. However the method we decided to do that is to tell the women to hide those parts so the other group is not tempted. Problem solved. However woman are being forced to modify themselves by society in order to fix a problem inherently caused by another group. They have no control over how the other group perceives them, so they shouldn’t be the ones having to adjust constantly to others’ perceptions. It used to be that fat was sexy. Who knows, maybe in the future it will be flat chested. Depending on what men become sexualized by, women have to constantly change their appearance so as not to tempt man. If you don’t find that ridiculous, let’s sub it out with a similar example. Imagine a group of white people who, whenever they see black people, felt “uncomfortable” because black people in their minds are associated with crime, thugs, etc. Let’s say that, in uncommon instances, the white people felt threatened and may have started fights if the black people looked particularly like criminals, or maybe the black people felt prejudiced and started fights. Let’s say the government’s solution to the problem was to segregate the black people from the white people, but they did so by telling the black people to not live in existing white neighborhoods. Problem solved because the instances of black on white confrontation are abated. Is it fair though? No, because it’s inconveniencing black people in order to solve a problem caused by the view point of white people. Black people can’t control how others view them, and if the problems are inherently caused by those misguided viewpoints then we should be 1) fixing those viewpoints and 2) telling people with those viewpoints to deal with it.
  - svalorzen 5y ago
    When you look at something like Borat's swimming suit, it is ridiculed specifically because it is sexualized. However, for men that swimming suit generally results in a negative sexual interest, and it's why you hardly find men wearing it. In gay parades you find plenty of men wearing ultra tight shorts, specifically because they sexualize. How can't they? They are specifically designed to highlight the genital areas. As a second point about breasts, human breasts are unique in the animal kingdom because they are specifically made to signal sexual availability. Generally animals do not have enlarged breasts, even when lactating. In humans the woman breast evolved to enlarge when sexual maturity is reached to signal sexual availability. So saying that boobs are just a body part that men sexualize is also incorrect.

tromp 5y ago

chrischen 5y ago
> Men can't wear "too short" because men's pants are not made that short. You’re completely missing the point. If men did wear shorts as short as a woman they might be perceived to be weird, but not sexualized in the way a woman would be. Men do have breasts. They are simply not as enlarged. But again you are missing the point because a flat-chested woman would not be allowed to show her breasts either. Maybe men are just better genetically because we are not born so immodest? My argument summed up is that woman have certain non-sex related body parts (could be hips, could be breasts) that have certain display requirements thrust upon them because they cause sexualized ideas in another group of people (mostly men). As a society we decided that these sexualized thoughts are bad and should be stopped. OK, that’s acceptable. However the method we decided to do that is to tell the women to hide those parts so the other group is not tempted. Problem solved. However woman are being forced to modify themselves by society in order to fix a problem inherently caused by another group. They have no control over how the other group perceives them, so they shouldn’t be the ones having to adjust constantly to others’ perceptions. It used to be that fat was sexy. Who knows, maybe in the future it will be flat chested. Depending on what men become sexualized by, women have to constantly change their appearance so as not to tempt man. If you don’t find that ridiculous, let’s sub it out with a similar example. Imagine a group of white people who, whenever they see black people, felt “uncomfortable” because black people in their minds are associated with crime, thugs, etc. Let’s say that, in uncommon instances, the white people felt threatened and may have started fights if the black people looked particularly like criminals, or maybe the black people felt prejudiced and started fights. Let’s say the government’s solution to the problem was to segregate the black people from the white people, but they did so by telling the black people to not live in existing white neighborhoods. Problem solved because the instances of black on white confrontation are abated. Is it fair though? No, because it’s inconveniencing black people in order to solve a problem caused by the view point of white people. Black people can’t control how others view them, and if the problems are inherently caused by those misguided viewpoints then we should be 1) fixing those viewpoints and 2) telling people with those viewpoints to deal with it.
- svalorzen 5y ago
  When you look at something like Borat's swimming suit, it is ridiculed specifically because it is sexualized. However, for men that swimming suit generally results in a negative sexual interest, and it's why you hardly find men wearing it. In gay parades you find plenty of men wearing ultra tight shorts, specifically because they sexualize. How can't they? They are specifically designed to highlight the genital areas. As a second point about breasts, human breasts are unique in the animal kingdom because they are specifically made to signal sexual availability. Generally animals do not have enlarged breasts, even when lactating. In humans the woman breast evolved to enlarge when sexual maturity is reached to signal sexual availability. So saying that boobs are just a body part that men sexualize is also incorrect.