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> For some hackers it leads to respect and eventually government / private jobs. This is obviously not true for non-technical criminals. Errrr, should we tell

> For some hackers it leads to respect and eventually government / private jobs. This is obviously not true for non-technical criminals. Errrr, should we tell you about Blackwater, Thalès, BAE Systems, Bolloré, Nestlé, Coca-Cola, Alexandre Benalla, Serge Dassault, NSA? They are just some examples of very famous people/corporations engaging in high-level criminal activities ranging from basic corruption to actual slavery to wide-scale murder. We live under capitalism, a system which glorifies criminal activity as the path to success and social recognition. Sometimes, this criminal activity is legal and you can't believe how that's even possible, but many times it's illegal but when people/organizations become too influential they are far above the law. Don't even get me started on law enforcement engaging in criminal activity such as organizing drugs trade like in USA's crack epidemics or with France's chief anti-drug cop leading the biggest smuggling ring for cocaine/hashish for years. One could even say in some circles, being ready to defy the law is a sign you're part of this circle. For example, in France at least, murderous cops are more likely to get promotions than to get kicked out of police, because once they took part in murder and held their mouth shut through the shitstorm without compromising colleagues/higher-ups, they have successfully demonstrated their loyalty to the establishment. Of course, you're free to not research scandals involving the people/organizations i mentioned, take the blue pill and go back to dreaming about elections and free market and how fair our society is.

emteycz 5y ago
Legal criminal activity is an oxymoron. The legal system defines what is criminal, and that has nothing to do with morality. And even though I'd tend to agree, I absolutely don't understand why you're making a connection to capitalism. Any other more socialist system was nothing else but much worse, and the social democracies of today have just the same issues with police etc you're talking about.
- southerntofu 5y ago
  > The legal system defines what is criminal, and that has nothing to do with morality. That's not entirely wrong, but "criminal" is often used figuratively to refer to morally-abhorrent behavior. I took the liberty to employ the word this way to address the blind spots of our respective legal systems. I personally wouldn't call a weed smoker a criminal but would call a murderous cop a criminal: that France's legal system does not agree with me is unfortunate but irrelevant. > Any other more socialist system was nothing else but much worse, and the social democracies of today have just the same issues That's a debatable point of view, but my opinion is that what you refer to as "socialism" or "social democracy" is in fact just another brand of capitalism. For example, in anarchist circles, the USSR was widely criticized as "State capitalism" [0]. In this mental framework, laissez-faire capitalism (Randt/Hayek ideals) is yet another brand of capitalism, although it has yet to be proven that capitalism can exist without nation states to enforce it, while stateless communism has a varied history throughout the ages. [0] https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/emma-goldman-there-is-no-communism-in-russia https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/emma-goldman-there-i...
  - emteycz 5y ago
    The problem with criminality is that what we feel like is absolutely irrelevant, which is why this is a big mistake. The fact is that weed is criminal in France/elsewhere in Europe and that is a problem that must be recognized because it's immoral. Same re: murderous cops and other excesses of criminal systems. Ad brands of capitalism - well OK, but any place that tried any brand of anarchism failed even harder than any brand of capitalism ever did, and the end result was much worse for the individual people who lived there. The US was always a heaven on Earth in comparison, even during its worst era of unregulated capitalism. USSR is the largest example but it was a poor country. There were rich countries that voted for true communism democratically and even there it devolved into a catastrophe in less than a year (after WW2, or after a few years for the more recent examples). IMHO human nature makes it absolutely impossible to make communism work, because it will be immediately taken over by power hungry people for their own benefit. Any anarchism that might be desired will never be allowed to develop, these power hungry people will make sure they control it.
    - Retric 5y ago
      The US has some seriously dark history including a relativity extreme form of slavery. Some failed states and tribalism where extremely unpleasant and legitimately better places to live.
      - emteycz 5y ago
        No, it was at best the same, US was never worse - and only much better after the abolition. The sad fact is that these anarchist places devolved into feudalism/slavery and then straight into warlordism. The only difference was that the people weren't called slaves directly.
        Retric 5y ago
        Not all forms of slavery are equivalent. Cultural norms evolve to where European serfdom for example was a distinct institution. At the other extreme Caribbean sugar plantations had a ~50% mortality rate in the first year. US slaves where treated significantly worse than the average over history, though of course not the worst.
- elliekelly 5y ago
  You might find the book “The Fish Who Ate the Whale” interesting.
brutusborn 5y ago
Interesting take, thanks for all the examples. To make my statement more correct I should have distinguished between crimes that are discovered and those that are prosecuted. For example, I wouldn't have considered the murderous police to have been "caught" if they didn't face prosecution, but that is simply semantics.

emteycz 5y ago

Legal criminal activity is an oxymoron. The legal system defines what is criminal, and that has nothing to do with morality. And even though I'd tend to agree, I absolutely don't understand why you're making a connection to capitalism. Any other more socialist system was nothing else but much worse, and the social democracies of today have just the same issues with police etc you're talking about.

southerntofu 5y ago
> The legal system defines what is criminal, and that has nothing to do with morality. That's not entirely wrong, but "criminal" is often used figuratively to refer to morally-abhorrent behavior. I took the liberty to employ the word this way to address the blind spots of our respective legal systems. I personally wouldn't call a weed smoker a criminal but would call a murderous cop a criminal: that France's legal system does not agree with me is unfortunate but irrelevant. > Any other more socialist system was nothing else but much worse, and the social democracies of today have just the same issues That's a debatable point of view, but my opinion is that what you refer to as "socialism" or "social democracy" is in fact just another brand of capitalism. For example, in anarchist circles, the USSR was widely criticized as "State capitalism" [0]. In this mental framework, laissez-faire capitalism (Randt/Hayek ideals) is yet another brand of capitalism, although it has yet to be proven that capitalism can exist without nation states to enforce it, while stateless communism has a varied history throughout the ages. [0] https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/emma-goldman-there-is-no-communism-in-russia https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/emma-goldman-there-i...
- emteycz 5y ago
  The problem with criminality is that what we feel like is absolutely irrelevant, which is why this is a big mistake. The fact is that weed is criminal in France/elsewhere in Europe and that is a problem that must be recognized because it's immoral. Same re: murderous cops and other excesses of criminal systems. Ad brands of capitalism - well OK, but any place that tried any brand of anarchism failed even harder than any brand of capitalism ever did, and the end result was much worse for the individual people who lived there. The US was always a heaven on Earth in comparison, even during its worst era of unregulated capitalism. USSR is the largest example but it was a poor country. There were rich countries that voted for true communism democratically and even there it devolved into a catastrophe in less than a year (after WW2, or after a few years for the more recent examples). IMHO human nature makes it absolutely impossible to make communism work, because it will be immediately taken over by power hungry people for their own benefit. Any anarchism that might be desired will never be allowed to develop, these power hungry people will make sure they control it.
  - Retric 5y ago
    The US has some seriously dark history including a relativity extreme form of slavery. Some failed states and tribalism where extremely unpleasant and legitimately better places to live.
    - emteycz 5y ago
      No, it was at best the same, US was never worse - and only much better after the abolition. The sad fact is that these anarchist places devolved into feudalism/slavery and then straight into warlordism. The only difference was that the people weren't called slaves directly.
      - Retric 5y ago
        Not all forms of slavery are equivalent. Cultural norms evolve to where European serfdom for example was a distinct institution. At the other extreme Caribbean sugar plantations had a ~50% mortality rate in the first year. US slaves where treated significantly worse than the average over history, though of course not the worst.
elliekelly 5y ago
You might find the book “The Fish Who Ate the Whale” interesting.

brutusborn 5y ago

Interesting take, thanks for all the examples. To make my statement more correct I should have distinguished between crimes that are discovered and those that are prosecuted. For example, I wouldn't have considered the murderous police to have been "caught" if they didn't face prosecution, but that is simply semantics.